[Stefan Blom[_3_]]

Note that the MVPs don't work for Microsoft. Complaints should be targeted
directly to Microsoft (although I do understand the need to vent at times).

Also, I'd like to point out, as Suzanne did in her reply, that everything
you need to know about sections is explained at
http://word.mvps.org/faqs/formatting...thSections.htm.

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP



"Max" wrote in message
...
Let me simply say that I agree - this "feature" is one of the stupidest
I've
ever encountered. I've been using Word for over 20 years, have an IQ well
over 150, and I still cannot figure out how to delete Section 2 from a
two-section document without losing my formatting.

Microsoft, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
--
Max


"Kent D." wrote:

Suzanne,

Thank you for your help, as I have a similar problem. Please don't take
my
comments as a personal attack, but I hope that you can gain perspective
from
them. I also want to comment that I'm sure it is difficult to deal with
people who are frustrated by not being able to do the things that they
are
trying to do because they haven't learned the right way to accomplish
them.

But Microsoft sells Office as a 'Productivity Tool', aims it at the
business
market and charges PREMIUM prices for their products. Microsoft has been
marketing Office Products as simple to use, so that any one can pick them
up
and get things done. Most of the people who are now using Microsoft
Office
products don't have college courses on these specific products. I am a
draftsperson, who has more computer experience than most. I have taken
some
introductory courses on Microsoft Office products, enough to know that
there
are some powerful tools available to format documents, but so long ago
that I
can't remember specifics. For Microsoft to have such counter intuitive
formatting in a PREMIUM product that is marketed as an easy to use,
'Productivity Tool', is un-defendable. It is just another indication of
Microsoft's arrogance.

I find it sad that almost all of the documents that I open either from
our
office or sent to us from customers or suppliers are completely
unformatted.
Most users still use the 'Return Key' to end lines and 'Space Bar' to
indent.
When I talk to some of the people who have generated these documents,
it's
not that they don't know that they can do it better, it's that it takes
too
much time and is too hard to correct. I think that much of the reason is
that
to really format a document correctly is still overly complicated and
silly
'counter intuitive' issues like page formatting at the end of a section
is
enough to take most user's over the edge.

If you work with 'Word' in depth everyday you can probably make it dance,
but Microsoft is selling this to ordinary people who are just trying to
get
something done. In my case, I have a couple of weeks to create a Drafting
Standards Document. I don't really have time to take a three or four day
course to brush up on how to make MS Word's formatting work. If Microsoft
want's to make the big bucks for their 'Productivity Tools' they should
be
addressing "confusing, but it's "by design"." type issues to make them
not
confusing.

Regards,
Kent

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

The article to which I referred you (both) has a section specifically
about
how to preserve section formatting when deleting material at the end of
a
document. Since the mvps.org server is currently down, I can't point
you to
the specific section, but it is toward the end.

The article explains the way section formatting works. This
understanding is
basic to working with sections. When you have only a single section,
the
section formatting is held in the final paragraph mark. When you insert
a
section break, it holds the formatting for the previous section, and
the
final paragraph mark holds the formatting for the final section. If you
want
to delete the section break (and the material following it), you must
copy
its formatting to the last section first.

Microsoft does provide paid support for users. Free support is provided
through these NGs. I don't feel any need to support a "poor product."
It is
a poor workman who blames his tools; you view Word as a "poor product"
because you are unwilling to learn how to use it.

You will also find, it you want to use these NGs regularly, that an
NNTP
newsreader such as Outlook Express makes this far easier; see
http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

"Steve H" Steve wrote in message
...
Ms. Barnhill -

Did you read the e-mails posted here? Do you realize that there were
two
separate posters (Kate Stiteler and Ken S.) and not one?

I understand that you are a Word MVP and do not work for Microsoft.
And
for
what it's worth, my thanks go to you and other "volunteers" for the
time
you
devote to trying to explain Microsoft's flawed products. But, to
claim
that
your post is not representative of Microsoft is disingenuous at best.
I
linked to this thread on Microsoft's website by clicking a link in
the
Help
program for Microsoft Word. So although you may not be a Microsoft
employee,
Microsoft is definitely using you to try to defend and explain their
poor
product. Why can't Microsoft themselves respond to this question
about
their
own product? Why do they need to rely on non-employees to explain
their
product? Regarding Ken S.'s post, regardless of your status with
respect
to
Microsoft, this thread is a "response by Microsoft" and a poor one at
that.


I had a similar question as Ken S. about the major annoyance of
deleting a
section break and losing all of the formatting of the section that I
am
keeping. I read the article that you linked to, but I did not find
it to
be
very helpful. For one thing, the article did not specifically
address
Ken's
(and my) question about deleting a section break without losing the
section
formatting that precedes that break. Basically, the take-home
message is
that there is no solution for this problem other than formatting the
second
section to exactly match the first section before deleting the
section
break.


Regardless of your (and other MVP's) good intentions, the fact
remains
that
Word is a flawed product and this section break nonsense makes no
sense at
all. In most cultures where Word and other Microsoft products are
sold,
people write from beginning to end. We write a section, format it,
create
a
section break, and then repeat. Why on earth should we lose the
formatting
for the first section when we delete the section break? A section
break
is
created when we want a new section, but why is that section break for
the
new
section suddenly imbued with the properties and formatting of the
preceding
section? That makes no sense. Look at it this way - if I have a
one-section
document with no section breaks, I can apply formatting to that
section,
right? So why does everything change and all of the formatting for
that
section is suddenly applied to a section break that I happen to
insert at
the
end of that section?

One more complaint and then my rant will be over: I tried to reply
to
this
thread inside the Word Help window, but it didn't work (natch). I
had to
go
online with my favorite browser (Opera, obviously not IE) to find
this
thread
so that I could reply.