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Life without Section Breaks?
Good Morning,
Working in '03. Trying to build a fresh template for a document that has been re-invented so many times it looks like, well I don't know what it looks like. Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks, so was considering trying to build the document just using page breaks (control + enter) instead. The problem: Text is formatted into two columns, graphics as one column (entire page width). When I highlight text and format to two columns, automatically plcaes a section break. Entire document will likely only be 10-12 pages, but will serve as a template for an ongoing monthly report (so obviously want to be able to change the month in the header on page one and not have to change others in different sections). Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
#2
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Life without Section Breaks?
Section breaks are required if you change the number of columns, as columns
are a section property. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA http://word.mvps.org "Office User" wrote in message news Good Morning, Working in '03. Trying to build a fresh template for a document that has been re-invented so many times it looks like, well I don't know what it looks like. Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks, so was considering trying to build the document just using page breaks (control + enter) instead. The problem: Text is formatted into two columns, graphics as one column (entire page width). When I highlight text and format to two columns, automatically plcaes a section break. Entire document will likely only be 10-12 pages, but will serve as a template for an ongoing monthly report (so obviously want to be able to change the month in the header on page one and not have to change others in different sections). Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
#3
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Life without Section Breaks?
Section breaks are required if you change the number of columns, as columns are a section property. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA http://word.mvps.org "Office User" wrote in message news Good Morning, Working in '03. Trying to build a fresh template for a document that has been re-invented so many times it looks like, well I don't know what it looks like. Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks, so was considering trying to build the document just using page breaks (control + enter) instead. The problem: Text is formatted into two columns, graphics as one column (entire page width). When I highlight text and format to two columns, automatically plcaes a section break. Entire document will likely only be 10-12 pages, but will serve as a template for an ongoing monthly report (so obviously want to be able to change the month in the header on page one and not have to change others in different sections). Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
#5
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Life without Section Breaks?
Additional to Suzanne's reply: There's no reason the same header can't run continuously through the entire document regardless of the number of sections. In fact, that's the default behavior. IOW, section breaks simply allow the change, they don't require it as long as the properties are correctly specified. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/1/10 11:41 AM, in article , "Office User" wrote: Good Morning, Working in '03. Trying to build a fresh template for a document that has been re-invented so many times it looks like, well I don't know what it looks like. Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks, so was considering trying to build the document just using page breaks (control + enter) instead. The problem: Text is formatted into two columns, graphics as one column (entire page width). When I highlight text and format to two columns, automatically plcaes a section break. Entire document will likely only be 10-12 pages, but will serve as a template for an ongoing monthly report (so obviously want to be able to change the month in the header on page one and not have to change others in different sections). Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
#6
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Life without Section Breaks?
CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer
behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents unless you know quite a lot about them. If you have front matter that has no or different header/footers, then the first main content section header/footers will likely be changed to unlink it from the front matter header/footer and they may be set for different first page. A new section after that will duplicate the settings of the first main section, including page number settings. If the new section is a continuous section break that does not cross pages, you may only see its effect on later pages. These things can result in restarted page numbers, duplicate page numbers, wrong text or text placement, and so forth. They are often not noticed until the document is nearly ready for printing. Been there. Office User, you can learn more about headers and footers he http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm The key is to know what to check for (link to previous, header/footer type, and page number setting) to either prevent problems or fix them. Pam CyberTaz wrote: Additional to Suzanne's reply: There's no reason the same header can't run continuously through the entire document regardless of the number of sections. In fact, that's the default behavior. IOW, section breaks simply allow the change, they don't require it as long as the properties are correctly specified. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/1/10 11:41 AM, in article , "Office User" wrote: Good Morning, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] Any help would be greatly appreciated. -- Message posted via http://www.officekb.com |
#7
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Life without Section Breaks?
CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer
behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents unless you know quite a lot about them. If you have front matter that has no or different header/footers, then the first main content section header/footers will likely be changed to unlink it from the front matter header/footer and they may be set for different first page. A new section after that will duplicate the settings of the first main section, including page number settings. If the new section is a continuous section break that does not cross pages, you may only see its effect on later pages. These things can result in restarted page numbers, duplicate page numbers, wrong text or text placement, and so forth. They are often not noticed until the document is nearly ready for printing. Been there. Office User, you can learn more about headers and footers he http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm The key is to know what to check for (link to previous, header/footer type, and page number setting) to either prevent problems or fix them. Pam CyberTaz wrote: Additional to Suzanne's reply: There's no reason the same header can't run continuously through the entire document regardless of the number of sections. In fact, that's the default behavior. IOW, section breaks simply allow the change, they don't require it as long as the properties are correctly specified. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/1/10 11:41 AM, in article , "Office User" wrote: Good Morning, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] Any help would be greatly appreciated. -- Message posted via http://www.officekb.com |
#8
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Life without Section Breaks?
But, by default, as you create new sections, headers (footers) will be linked to
their respective "neighbors" in the preceding sections. -- Stefan Blom Microsoft Word MVP (Message posted via msnews.microsoft.com) "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote in message news:a8e4abf464b4a@uwe... CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents unless you know quite a lot about them. If you have front matter that has no or different header/footers, then the first main content section header/footers will likely be changed to unlink it from the front matter header/footer and they may be set for different first page. A new section after that will duplicate the settings of the first main section, including page number settings. If the new section is a continuous section break that does not cross pages, you may only see its effect on later pages. These things can result in restarted page numbers, duplicate page numbers, wrong text or text placement, and so forth. They are often not noticed until the document is nearly ready for printing. Been there. Office User, you can learn more about headers and footers he http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm The key is to know what to check for (link to previous, header/footer type, and page number setting) to either prevent problems or fix them. Pam CyberTaz wrote: Additional to Suzanne's reply: There's no reason the same header can't run continuously through the entire document regardless of the number of sections. In fact, that's the default behavior. IOW, section breaks simply allow the change, they don't require it as long as the properties are correctly specified. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/1/10 11:41 AM, in article , "Office User" wrote: Good Morning, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] Any help would be greatly appreciated. -- Message posted via http://www.officekb.com |
#9
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Life without Section Breaks?
But, by default, as you create new sections, headers (footers) will be linked to their respective "neighbors" in the preceding sections. -- Stefan Blom Microsoft Word MVP (Message posted via msnews.microsoft.com) "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote in message news:a8e4abf464b4a@uwe... CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents unless you know quite a lot about them. If you have front matter that has no or different header/footers, then the first main content section header/footers will likely be changed to unlink it from the front matter header/footer and they may be set for different first page. A new section after that will duplicate the settings of the first main section, including page number settings. If the new section is a continuous section break that does not cross pages, you may only see its effect on later pages. These things can result in restarted page numbers, duplicate page numbers, wrong text or text placement, and so forth. They are often not noticed until the document is nearly ready for printing. Been there. Office User, you can learn more about headers and footers he http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm The key is to know what to check for (link to previous, header/footer type, and page number setting) to either prevent problems or fix them. Pam CyberTaz wrote: Additional to Suzanne's reply: There's no reason the same header can't run continuously through the entire document regardless of the number of sections. In fact, that's the default behavior. IOW, section breaks simply allow the change, they don't require it as long as the properties are correctly specified. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/1/10 11:41 AM, in article , "Office User" wrote: Good Morning, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] Any help would be greatly appreciated. -- Message posted via http://www.officekb.com |
#10
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Life without Section Breaks?
What, exactly, of what I wrote is 'untrue'?
Have you any idea how many "if"s & conditional statements you've included in this contradiction, Pam? There's absolutely no indication in Office User's description that *any* of those complexities are wanted or needed. In fact, the desire to keep the document "simple" is the point - That's exactly what the OP is striving for as indicated in the statement "Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks". The subject document is a 10-12 page report, not a 500 page technical manual. Complexity is imposed by a user deviating from the defaults... Often unnecessarily. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/1/10 5:22 PM, in article a8e4abf464b4a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents unless you know quite a lot about them. If you have front matter that has no or different header/footers, then the first main content section header/footers will likely be changed to unlink it from the front matter header/footer and they may be set for different first page. A new section after that will duplicate the settings of the first main section, including page number settings. If the new section is a continuous section break that does not cross pages, you may only see its effect on later pages. These things can result in restarted page numbers, duplicate page numbers, wrong text or text placement, and so forth. They are often not noticed until the document is nearly ready for printing. Been there. Office User, you can learn more about headers and footers he http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm The key is to know what to check for (link to previous, header/footer type, and page number setting) to either prevent problems or fix them. Pam CyberTaz wrote: Additional to Suzanne's reply: There's no reason the same header can't run continuously through the entire document regardless of the number of sections. In fact, that's the default behavior. IOW, section breaks simply allow the change, they don't require it as long as the properties are correctly specified. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/1/10 11:41 AM, in article , "Office User" wrote: Good Morning, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
#11
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Life without Section Breaks?
What, exactly, of what I wrote is 'untrue'? Have you any idea how many "if"s & conditional statements you've included in this contradiction, Pam? There's absolutely no indication in Office User's description that *any* of those complexities are wanted or needed. In fact, the desire to keep the document "simple" is the point - That's exactly what the OP is striving for as indicated in the statement "Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks". The subject document is a 10-12 page report, not a 500 page technical manual. Complexity is imposed by a user deviating from the defaults... Often unnecessarily. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/1/10 5:22 PM, in article a8e4abf464b4a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents unless you know quite a lot about them. If you have front matter that has no or different header/footers, then the first main content section header/footers will likely be changed to unlink it from the front matter header/footer and they may be set for different first page. A new section after that will duplicate the settings of the first main section, including page number settings. If the new section is a continuous section break that does not cross pages, you may only see its effect on later pages. These things can result in restarted page numbers, duplicate page numbers, wrong text or text placement, and so forth. They are often not noticed until the document is nearly ready for printing. Been there. Office User, you can learn more about headers and footers he http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm The key is to know what to check for (link to previous, header/footer type, and page number setting) to either prevent problems or fix them. Pam CyberTaz wrote: Additional to Suzanne's reply: There's no reason the same header can't run continuously through the entire document regardless of the number of sections. In fact, that's the default behavior. IOW, section breaks simply allow the change, they don't require it as long as the properties are correctly specified. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/1/10 11:41 AM, in article , "Office User" wrote: Good Morning, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
#12
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Life without Section Breaks?
I wrote "what you say is only true for simple documents". Not that what you
said was untrue. Office User said "Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks" and explained that he has double and single column sections. Okay, I inferred that some of the sections are continuous. I often have to fix such documents. The clients haven't a clue. Pam CyberTaz wrote: What, exactly, of what I wrote is 'untrue'? Have you any idea how many "if"s & conditional statements you've included in this contradiction, Pam? There's absolutely no indication in Office User's description that *any* of those complexities are wanted or needed. In fact, the desire to keep the document "simple" is the point - That's exactly what the OP is striving for as indicated in the statement "Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks". The subject document is a 10-12 page report, not a 500 page technical manual. Complexity is imposed by a user deviating from the defaults... Often unnecessarily. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/1/10 5:22 PM, in article a8e4abf464b4a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] Any help would be greatly appreciated. -- Message posted via http://www.officekb.com |
#13
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Life without Section Breaks?
I wrote "what you say is only true for simple documents". Not that what you
said was untrue. Office User said "Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks" and explained that he has double and single column sections. Okay, I inferred that some of the sections are continuous. I often have to fix such documents. The clients haven't a clue. Pam CyberTaz wrote: What, exactly, of what I wrote is 'untrue'? Have you any idea how many "if"s & conditional statements you've included in this contradiction, Pam? There's absolutely no indication in Office User's description that *any* of those complexities are wanted or needed. In fact, the desire to keep the document "simple" is the point - That's exactly what the OP is striving for as indicated in the statement "Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks". The subject document is a 10-12 page report, not a 500 page technical manual. Complexity is imposed by a user deviating from the defaults... Often unnecessarily. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/1/10 5:22 PM, in article a8e4abf464b4a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] Any help would be greatly appreciated. -- Message posted via http://www.officekb.com |
#14
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Life without Section Breaks?
I'm sorry, but as I understand the English language, if something is
categorized as only true under certain conditions it is implicitly false under any other conditions. Perhaps we can debate what constitutes a "complex" vs. "simple" document, but in the context of the thread it would still be subjective as to where the document in question might fall. The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks -- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page. I don't doubt that you may have had to "fix such documents", but it isn't the fault of the section breaks that the documents needed fixing. It's how the sections were mangled that caused the breakage. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/2/10 3:20 PM, in article a8f02e1f70c60@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: I wrote "what you say is only true for simple documents". Not that what you said was untrue. Office User said "Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks" and explained that he has double and single column sections. Okay, I inferred that some of the sections are continuous. I often have to fix such documents. The clients haven't a clue. Pam CyberTaz wrote: What, exactly, of what I wrote is 'untrue'? Have you any idea how many "if"s & conditional statements you've included in this contradiction, Pam? There's absolutely no indication in Office User's description that *any* of those complexities are wanted or needed. In fact, the desire to keep the document "simple" is the point - That's exactly what the OP is striving for as indicated in the statement "Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks". The subject document is a 10-12 page report, not a 500 page technical manual. Complexity is imposed by a user deviating from the defaults... Often unnecessarily. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/1/10 5:22 PM, in article a8e4abf464b4a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
#15
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Life without Section Breaks?
I'm sorry, but as I understand the English language, if something is
categorized as only true under certain conditions it is implicitly false under any other conditions. Perhaps we can debate what constitutes a "complex" vs. "simple" document, but in the context of the thread it would still be subjective as to where the document in question might fall. The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks -- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page. I don't doubt that you may have had to "fix such documents", but it isn't the fault of the section breaks that the documents needed fixing. It's how the sections were mangled that caused the breakage. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/2/10 3:20 PM, in article a8f02e1f70c60@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: I wrote "what you say is only true for simple documents". Not that what you said was untrue. Office User said "Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks" and explained that he has double and single column sections. Okay, I inferred that some of the sections are continuous. I often have to fix such documents. The clients haven't a clue. Pam CyberTaz wrote: What, exactly, of what I wrote is 'untrue'? Have you any idea how many "if"s & conditional statements you've included in this contradiction, Pam? There's absolutely no indication in Office User's description that *any* of those complexities are wanted or needed. In fact, the desire to keep the document "simple" is the point - That's exactly what the OP is striving for as indicated in the statement "Having trouble keeping the headers and page numbering fluid/consecutive across section breaks". The subject document is a 10-12 page report, not a 500 page technical manual. Complexity is imposed by a user deviating from the defaults... Often unnecessarily. Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac On 6/1/10 5:22 PM, in article a8e4abf464b4a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz, what you say is only true for simple documents. Header/footer behavior is complicated and difficult to troubleshoot in complex documents [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
#16
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Life without Section Breaks?
CyberTaz wrote:
The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks -- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page. I very much disagree with you on this point. Try this: in a new document header, add the page number code and set the page numbering to start at 22. Add page breaks until you get to page 26. Add some text, select it, and make it double column. Add a page break after the text. The next page number shown will be 23. The band-aid fix is to change 23 to 27. But later changes to the document that cause section 3 to cross pages will bring the page number problem back. The better fix is to go to the header for section 3 (& any later sections, as appropriate) and set the page number start value to continuous. The best "fix" is to understand that Word replicates section settings in new sections and to fix it before leaving the page. Pam -- Message posted via OfficeKB.com http://www.officekb.com/Uwe/Forums.a...ement/201006/1 |
#17
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Life without Section Breaks?
CyberTaz wrote:
The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks -- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page. I very much disagree with you on this point. Try this: in a new document header, add the page number code and set the page numbering to start at 22. Add page breaks until you get to page 26. Add some text, select it, and make it double column. Add a page break after the text. The next page number shown will be 23. The band-aid fix is to change 23 to 27. But later changes to the document that cause section 3 to cross pages will bring the page number problem back. The better fix is to go to the header for section 3 (& any later sections, as appropriate) and set the page number start value to continuous. The best "fix" is to understand that Word replicates section settings in new sections and to fix it before leaving the page. Pam -- Message posted via OfficeKB.com http://www.officekb.com/Uwe/Forums.a...ement/201006/1 |
#18
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Life without Section Breaks?
On 6/2/10 10:09 PM, in article a8f3c0034116a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz wrote: The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks -- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page. I very much disagree with you on this point. Try this: in a new document header, add the page number code and set the page numbering to start at 22. Add page breaks until you get to page 26. Add some text, select it, and make it double column. Add a page break after the text. The next page number shown will be 23. You don't seem to realize that you have done nothing here but reinforce the very points I am making. I would never consider doing any such hatchet job for experimental or any other purpose. *Anything* can be expected to fail if it's jerry-rigged to do so. If you want a *valid* test of what I'm saying: 1- Create the new document & populate it with =rand(40,17), 2- Create you Header/Footer & include page numbers, 3- Select as many portions as you wish, each of whatever length you prefer & apply your columnar layout as you go. There will be NO disruption to the H/F or page numbering. This is what the OP was attempting to do. Anything beyond that is irrelevant. If you then want to hack at it in the manner you describe [i.e., "Add a page break after the text."] I can't be held accountable for the consequences... Nor can the original section breaks. The band-aid fix is to change 23 to 27. But later changes to the document that cause section 3 to cross pages will bring the page number problem back. The better fix is to go to the header for section 3 (& any later sections, as appropriate) and set the page number start value to continuous. The best "fix" is to understand that Word replicates section settings in new sections and to fix it before leaving the page. .... Or to avoid creating such a shambles in the first place. Quite frankly, though, when I have to rework a document that has been mismanaged as badly as what you describe I consider the "best fix" to reconstruct it. You've conveniently snipped the last paragraph of my reply which pertains to every aspect of your response, so I'll reinsert it he I don't doubt that you may have had to "fix such documents", but it isn't the fault of the section breaks that the documents needed fixing. It's how the sections were mangled that caused the breakage. Pam Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac |
#19
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Life without Section Breaks?
On 6/2/10 10:09 PM, in article a8f3c0034116a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz wrote: The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks -- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page. I very much disagree with you on this point. Try this: in a new document header, add the page number code and set the page numbering to start at 22. Add page breaks until you get to page 26. Add some text, select it, and make it double column. Add a page break after the text. The next page number shown will be 23. You don't seem to realize that you have done nothing here but reinforce the very points I am making. I would never consider doing any such hatchet job for experimental or any other purpose. *Anything* can be expected to fail if it's jerry-rigged to do so. If you want a *valid* test of what I'm saying: 1- Create the new document & populate it with =rand(40,17), 2- Create you Header/Footer & include page numbers, 3- Select as many portions as you wish, each of whatever length you prefer & apply your columnar layout as you go. There will be NO disruption to the H/F or page numbering. This is what the OP was attempting to do. Anything beyond that is irrelevant. If you then want to hack at it in the manner you describe [i.e., "Add a page break after the text."] I can't be held accountable for the consequences... Nor can the original section breaks. The band-aid fix is to change 23 to 27. But later changes to the document that cause section 3 to cross pages will bring the page number problem back. The better fix is to go to the header for section 3 (& any later sections, as appropriate) and set the page number start value to continuous. The best "fix" is to understand that Word replicates section settings in new sections and to fix it before leaving the page. .... Or to avoid creating such a shambles in the first place. Quite frankly, though, when I have to rework a document that has been mismanaged as badly as what you describe I consider the "best fix" to reconstruct it. You've conveniently snipped the last paragraph of my reply which pertains to every aspect of your response, so I'll reinsert it he I don't doubt that you may have had to "fix such documents", but it isn't the fault of the section breaks that the documents needed fixing. It's how the sections were mangled that caused the breakage. Pam Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac |
#20
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Life without Section Breaks?
But most people _don't_ insert their columniation after the document
is finished; they will insert section breaks as they're typing along, and if there's a two-column passage less than one page long, they will likely encounter the problem Pamelia explains how to cure. Your procedure works, as she said, only in the simplest cases. She didn't suggest that what you said is "untrue," only that it's true only a small part of the time. On Jun 3, 6:54*am, CyberTaz wrote: On 6/2/10 10:09 PM, in article a8f3c0034116a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell *via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz wrote: The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks -- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page. I very much disagree with you on this point. Try this: *in a new document header, add the page number code and set the page numbering to start at 22. Add page breaks until you get to page 26. *Add some text, select it, and make it double column. *Add a page break after the text. *The next page number shown will be 23. You don't seem to realize that you have done nothing here but reinforce the very points I am making. I would never consider doing any such hatchet job for experimental or any other purpose. *Anything* can be expected to fail if it's jerry-rigged to do so. If you want a *valid* test of what I'm saying: 1- Create the new document & populate it with =rand(40,17), 2- Create you Header/Footer & include page numbers, 3- Select as many portions as you wish, each of whatever length you prefer & apply your columnar layout as you go. There will be NO disruption to the H/F or page numbering. This is what the OP was attempting to do. Anything beyond that is irrelevant. If you then want to hack at it in the manner you describe [i.e., "Add a page break after the text."] I can't be held accountable for the consequences.... Nor can the original section breaks. The band-aid fix is to change 23 to 27. *But later changes to the document that cause section 3 to cross pages will bring the page number problem back. The better fix is to go to the header for section 3 (& any later sections, as appropriate) and set the page number start value to continuous. The best "fix" is to understand that Word replicates section settings in new sections and to fix it before leaving the page. ... Or to avoid creating such a shambles in the first place. Quite frankly, though, when I have to rework a document that has been mismanaged as badly as what you describe I consider the "best fix" to reconstruct it. You've conveniently snipped the last paragraph of my reply which pertains to every aspect of your response, so I'll reinsert it he I don't doubt that you may have had to "fix such documents", but it isn't the fault of the section breaks that the documents needed fixing. It's how the sections were mangled that caused the breakage. |
#21
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
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Life without Section Breaks?
But most people _don't_ insert their columniation after the document
is finished; they will insert section breaks as they're typing along, and if there's a two-column passage less than one page long, they will likely encounter the problem Pamelia explains how to cure. Your procedure works, as she said, only in the simplest cases. She didn't suggest that what you said is "untrue," only that it's true only a small part of the time. On Jun 3, 6:54*am, CyberTaz wrote: On 6/2/10 10:09 PM, in article a8f3c0034116a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell *via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz wrote: The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks -- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page. I very much disagree with you on this point. Try this: *in a new document header, add the page number code and set the page numbering to start at 22. Add page breaks until you get to page 26. *Add some text, select it, and make it double column. *Add a page break after the text. *The next page number shown will be 23. You don't seem to realize that you have done nothing here but reinforce the very points I am making. I would never consider doing any such hatchet job for experimental or any other purpose. *Anything* can be expected to fail if it's jerry-rigged to do so. If you want a *valid* test of what I'm saying: 1- Create the new document & populate it with =rand(40,17), 2- Create you Header/Footer & include page numbers, 3- Select as many portions as you wish, each of whatever length you prefer & apply your columnar layout as you go. There will be NO disruption to the H/F or page numbering. This is what the OP was attempting to do. Anything beyond that is irrelevant. If you then want to hack at it in the manner you describe [i.e., "Add a page break after the text."] I can't be held accountable for the consequences.... Nor can the original section breaks. The band-aid fix is to change 23 to 27. *But later changes to the document that cause section 3 to cross pages will bring the page number problem back. The better fix is to go to the header for section 3 (& any later sections, as appropriate) and set the page number start value to continuous. The best "fix" is to understand that Word replicates section settings in new sections and to fix it before leaving the page. ... Or to avoid creating such a shambles in the first place. Quite frankly, though, when I have to rework a document that has been mismanaged as badly as what you describe I consider the "best fix" to reconstruct it. You've conveniently snipped the last paragraph of my reply which pertains to every aspect of your response, so I'll reinsert it he I don't doubt that you may have had to "fix such documents", but it isn't the fault of the section breaks that the documents needed fixing. It's how the sections were mangled that caused the breakage. |
#22
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
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Life without Section Breaks?
A perhaps more common example could have been given, but I would not call
that "jerry-rigged" at all. It is not uncommon to have a document with a cover page, an introduction/table of contents on pages numbered with roman numerals and the main body of the document numbered with arabic numbers starting at 1. That is unless you call what has to be done to come up with that arrangement "jerry-rigging" If the page numbering in the main body of the document is formatted to start at 1 rather than Continue from the previous section and then a section break is inserted into the body of the document for what ever reason (change of orientation, etc.), the numbering in the new section will start automatically start at 1. -- Hope this helps. Please reply to the newsgroup unless you wish to avail yourself of my services on a paid consulting basis. Doug Robbins - Word MVP, originally posted via msnews.microsoft.com "CyberTaz" wrote in message .. . On 6/2/10 10:09 PM, in article a8f3c0034116a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz wrote: The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks -- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page. I very much disagree with you on this point. Try this: in a new document header, add the page number code and set the page numbering to start at 22. Add page breaks until you get to page 26. Add some text, select it, and make it double column. Add a page break after the text. The next page number shown will be 23. You don't seem to realize that you have done nothing here but reinforce the very points I am making. I would never consider doing any such hatchet job for experimental or any other purpose. *Anything* can be expected to fail if it's jerry-rigged to do so. If you want a *valid* test of what I'm saying: 1- Create the new document & populate it with =rand(40,17), 2- Create you Header/Footer & include page numbers, 3- Select as many portions as you wish, each of whatever length you prefer & apply your columnar layout as you go. There will be NO disruption to the H/F or page numbering. This is what the OP was attempting to do. Anything beyond that is irrelevant. If you then want to hack at it in the manner you describe [i.e., "Add a page break after the text."] I can't be held accountable for the consequences... Nor can the original section breaks. The band-aid fix is to change 23 to 27. But later changes to the document that cause section 3 to cross pages will bring the page number problem back. The better fix is to go to the header for section 3 (& any later sections, as appropriate) and set the page number start value to continuous. The best "fix" is to understand that Word replicates section settings in new sections and to fix it before leaving the page. ... Or to avoid creating such a shambles in the first place. Quite frankly, though, when I have to rework a document that has been mismanaged as badly as what you describe I consider the "best fix" to reconstruct it. You've conveniently snipped the last paragraph of my reply which pertains to every aspect of your response, so I'll reinsert it he I don't doubt that you may have had to "fix such documents", but it isn't the fault of the section breaks that the documents needed fixing. It's how the sections were mangled that caused the breakage. Pam Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac |
#23
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
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Life without Section Breaks?
A perhaps more common example could have been given, but I would not call that "jerry-rigged" at all. It is not uncommon to have a document with a cover page, an introduction/table of contents on pages numbered with roman numerals and the main body of the document numbered with arabic numbers starting at 1. That is unless you call what has to be done to come up with that arrangement "jerry-rigging" If the page numbering in the main body of the document is formatted to start at 1 rather than Continue from the previous section and then a section break is inserted into the body of the document for what ever reason (change of orientation, etc.), the numbering in the new section will start automatically start at 1. -- Hope this helps. Please reply to the newsgroup unless you wish to avail yourself of my services on a paid consulting basis. Doug Robbins - Word MVP, originally posted via msnews.microsoft.com "CyberTaz" wrote in message .. . On 6/2/10 10:09 PM, in article a8f3c0034116a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz wrote: The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks -- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page. I very much disagree with you on this point. Try this: in a new document header, add the page number code and set the page numbering to start at 22. Add page breaks until you get to page 26. Add some text, select it, and make it double column. Add a page break after the text. The next page number shown will be 23. You don't seem to realize that you have done nothing here but reinforce the very points I am making. I would never consider doing any such hatchet job for experimental or any other purpose. *Anything* can be expected to fail if it's jerry-rigged to do so. If you want a *valid* test of what I'm saying: 1- Create the new document & populate it with =rand(40,17), 2- Create you Header/Footer & include page numbers, 3- Select as many portions as you wish, each of whatever length you prefer & apply your columnar layout as you go. There will be NO disruption to the H/F or page numbering. This is what the OP was attempting to do. Anything beyond that is irrelevant. If you then want to hack at it in the manner you describe [i.e., "Add a page break after the text."] I can't be held accountable for the consequences... Nor can the original section breaks. The band-aid fix is to change 23 to 27. But later changes to the document that cause section 3 to cross pages will bring the page number problem back. The better fix is to go to the header for section 3 (& any later sections, as appropriate) and set the page number start value to continuous. The best "fix" is to understand that Word replicates section settings in new sections and to fix it before leaving the page. ... Or to avoid creating such a shambles in the first place. Quite frankly, though, when I have to rework a document that has been mismanaged as badly as what you describe I consider the "best fix" to reconstruct it. You've conveniently snipped the last paragraph of my reply which pertains to every aspect of your response, so I'll reinsert it he I don't doubt that you may have had to "fix such documents", but it isn't the fault of the section breaks that the documents needed fixing. It's how the sections were mangled that caused the breakage. Pam Regards |:) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac |
#24
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
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Life without Section Breaks?
IMHO
I would hate to get in between the protagonists in this debate - especially since you outclass me in all aspects of Word knowledge (and possibly elsewhere too) - but I had to make a note here because its like watching my parents squabble. Since the dawn of wordprocessors (meaning Wordstar for me) there have been two or three main types of documents - one off small items like letters that are filed and forgotten. Long presentations that are rarely updated, and the ever present and never complete 'monthly reports' that grow and morph and can never be entirely 'cleaned up' for fear of losing something useful - and where they have been in use for several months, or in some cases years, they will have been played around with in the most exciting ways as one or more 'owners' moves them in a different direction for 'ease of use' or because they read about a new function or it got damaged and rebuilt and so on. I would expect that any document that was created before the last major release of Office (wherever your organisation happens to be at the moment) there will be at least one glaring anomaly that everybody works around - be it page numbering, misuse of tab stops, faulty tables, broken multi-level lists, mis-used, mis defined and generally broken styles and, especially, improper use of page breaks and section breaks especially around changes in format (portrait/landscape, columns, charts and so on). To suggest that people have the time, energy or political will to redesign some of these things from scratch is just ignoring the problem and to suggest that the poor sap who originated it was negligent in their handling of esoteria like section breaks (which only a coder can love) is to ignore the possibility it was created before they knew what a section break was (because Word puts them in automatically around the columns then helpfully hides the fact using the defaults you have discussed) The OP said it needed to be simple - ergo the OP should consider spending time and money redesigning the document, make use of some of the later features and generally tidy it up. Cybertaz - pamelia disagreed with you in a fairly polite way and pointed out some problems that she is aware of - get over it and be less pedantic and sensitive next time Pamelia - not everyone has your specific experience and some people DO design documents within the constraints of the tool so remember that next time you imply someone is in the wrong - the 'IMHO' tag is quite useful here. Peter - despite what you say (IMHO) most people DO insert columnation after the body of the document is drafted because some smart ass comes along and says - 'that would look better as two columns and can you add this chart in the middle of page 3 and can we have this part landscape and we need the foreword to use roman numerals and we want a Table of Contents with hyperlinks etc etc etc' Reg - shut the f*k up and do some real work you windbag - just my 5 cents hth RegMigrant "Peter T. Daniels" wrote: But most people _don't_ insert their columniation after the document is finished; they will insert section breaks as they're typing along, and if there's a two-column passage less than one page long, they will likely encounter the problem Pamelia explains how to cure. Your procedure works, as she said, only in the simplest cases. She didn't suggest that what you said is "untrue," only that it's true only a small part of the time. On Jun 3, 6:54 am, CyberTaz wrote: On 6/2/10 10:09 PM, in article a8f3c0034116a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz wrote: The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks -- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page. I very much disagree with you on this point. Try this: in a new document header, add the page number code and set the page numbering to start at 22. Add page breaks until you get to page 26. Add some text, select it, and make it double column. Add a page break after the text. The next page number shown will be 23. You don't seem to realize that you have done nothing here but reinforce the very points I am making. I would never consider doing any such hatchet job for experimental or any other purpose. *Anything* can be expected to fail if it's jerry-rigged to do so. If you want a *valid* test of what I'm saying: 1- Create the new document & populate it with =rand(40,17), 2- Create you Header/Footer & include page numbers, 3- Select as many portions as you wish, each of whatever length you prefer & apply your columnar layout as you go. There will be NO disruption to the H/F or page numbering. This is what the OP was attempting to do. Anything beyond that is irrelevant. If you then want to hack at it in the manner you describe [i.e., "Add a page break after the text."] I can't be held accountable for the consequences.... Nor can the original section breaks. The band-aid fix is to change 23 to 27. But later changes to the document that cause section 3 to cross pages will bring the page number problem back. The better fix is to go to the header for section 3 (& any later sections, as appropriate) and set the page number start value to continuous. The best "fix" is to understand that Word replicates section settings in new sections and to fix it before leaving the page. ... Or to avoid creating such a shambles in the first place. Quite frankly, though, when I have to rework a document that has been mismanaged as badly as what you describe I consider the "best fix" to reconstruct it. You've conveniently snipped the last paragraph of my reply which pertains to every aspect of your response, so I'll reinsert it he I don't doubt that you may have had to "fix such documents", but it isn't the fault of the section breaks that the documents needed fixing. It's how the sections were mangled that caused the breakage. . |
#25
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
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Life without Section Breaks?
IMHO
I would hate to get in between the protagonists in this debate - especially since you outclass me in all aspects of Word knowledge (and possibly elsewhere too) - but I had to make a note here because its like watching my parents squabble. Since the dawn of wordprocessors (meaning Wordstar for me) there have been two or three main types of documents - one off small items like letters that are filed and forgotten. Long presentations that are rarely updated, and the ever present and never complete 'monthly reports' that grow and morph and can never be entirely 'cleaned up' for fear of losing something useful - and where they have been in use for several months, or in some cases years, they will have been played around with in the most exciting ways as one or more 'owners' moves them in a different direction for 'ease of use' or because they read about a new function or it got damaged and rebuilt and so on. I would expect that any document that was created before the last major release of Office (wherever your organisation happens to be at the moment) there will be at least one glaring anomaly that everybody works around - be it page numbering, misuse of tab stops, faulty tables, broken multi-level lists, mis-used, mis defined and generally broken styles and, especially, improper use of page breaks and section breaks especially around changes in format (portrait/landscape, columns, charts and so on). To suggest that people have the time, energy or political will to redesign some of these things from scratch is just ignoring the problem and to suggest that the poor sap who originated it was negligent in their handling of esoteria like section breaks (which only a coder can love) is to ignore the possibility it was created before they knew what a section break was (because Word puts them in automatically around the columns then helpfully hides the fact using the defaults you have discussed) The OP said it needed to be simple - ergo the OP should consider spending time and money redesigning the document, make use of some of the later features and generally tidy it up. Cybertaz - pamelia disagreed with you in a fairly polite way and pointed out some problems that she is aware of - get over it and be less pedantic and sensitive next time Pamelia - not everyone has your specific experience and some people DO design documents within the constraints of the tool so remember that next time you imply someone is in the wrong - the 'IMHO' tag is quite useful here. Peter - despite what you say (IMHO) most people DO insert columnation after the body of the document is drafted because some smart ass comes along and says - 'that would look better as two columns and can you add this chart in the middle of page 3 and can we have this part landscape and we need the foreword to use roman numerals and we want a Table of Contents with hyperlinks etc etc etc' Reg - shut the f*k up and do some real work you windbag - just my 5 cents hth RegMigrant "Peter T. Daniels" wrote: But most people _don't_ insert their columniation after the document is finished; they will insert section breaks as they're typing along, and if there's a two-column passage less than one page long, they will likely encounter the problem Pamelia explains how to cure. Your procedure works, as she said, only in the simplest cases. She didn't suggest that what you said is "untrue," only that it's true only a small part of the time. On Jun 3, 6:54 am, CyberTaz wrote: On 6/2/10 10:09 PM, in article a8f3c0034116a@uwe, "Pamelia Caswell via OfficeKB.com" u43222@uwe wrote: CyberTaz wrote: The fact remains, though, that the imposition of Continuous section breaks -- or any other type -- neither inherently disrupts the continuity of Headers or Footers, nor interferes with page numbering. Further, it makes absolutely no difference whether the CSBs span a single empty paragraph or multiple pages... or even whether there are several CSBs on a single page. I very much disagree with you on this point. Try this: in a new document header, add the page number code and set the page numbering to start at 22. Add page breaks until you get to page 26. Add some text, select it, and make it double column. Add a page break after the text. The next page number shown will be 23. You don't seem to realize that you have done nothing here but reinforce the very points I am making. I would never consider doing any such hatchet job for experimental or any other purpose. *Anything* can be expected to fail if it's jerry-rigged to do so. If you want a *valid* test of what I'm saying: 1- Create the new document & populate it with =rand(40,17), 2- Create you Header/Footer & include page numbers, 3- Select as many portions as you wish, each of whatever length you prefer & apply your columnar layout as you go. There will be NO disruption to the H/F or page numbering. This is what the OP was attempting to do. Anything beyond that is irrelevant. If you then want to hack at it in the manner you describe [i.e., "Add a page break after the text."] I can't be held accountable for the consequences.... Nor can the original section breaks. The band-aid fix is to change 23 to 27. But later changes to the document that cause section 3 to cross pages will bring the page number problem back. The better fix is to go to the header for section 3 (& any later sections, as appropriate) and set the page number start value to continuous. The best "fix" is to understand that Word replicates section settings in new sections and to fix it before leaving the page. ... Or to avoid creating such a shambles in the first place. Quite frankly, though, when I have to rework a document that has been mismanaged as badly as what you describe I consider the "best fix" to reconstruct it. You've conveniently snipped the last paragraph of my reply which pertains to every aspect of your response, so I'll reinsert it he I don't doubt that you may have had to "fix such documents", but it isn't the fault of the section breaks that the documents needed fixing. It's how the sections were mangled that caused the breakage. . |
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