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#1
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
First, let me say that I hate Microsoft Word 2003. It seems like they have
really made it less user friendly. I use a lot of Section Breaks when drafting reports. Generally I have page 1 with one header and footer, which I end with a continuous section break, followed by subsequent pages with no header and page number footers. I then will use a page section break, and start the process again with a different header. Well, I now find that when I delete a continuous section break to insert it elsewhere, the page section break above it is ALSO deleted, and then impossible to put back in. This annoying fluke is the bane of my existence. Any help? |
#3
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
The response by Microsoft to simply indicate that "the behavior of Word 2003
hasn't changed" is well...very, very stupid indeed. The obvious response to a customer using one's product is to give them clear and concises instructions on how to solve their problem. But Microsoft failed to understand this and instead simply indicated that the behavior of Word 2003 has not changed! Daaa! How 'bout providing a an answer to actual help the person. Here I am with the same problem: I can't figure out how to delete a section but still keep the format of the "preceding" section. There is no help or instructions rendered by Microsoft in this regard. That reallly sucks!! And so does Suzanne's response! "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: This behavior has not changed in Word 2003. See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting...thSections.htm -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Kate Stiteler" Kate wrote in message ... First, let me say that I hate Microsoft Word 2003. It seems like they have really made it less user friendly. I use a lot of Section Breaks when drafting reports. Generally I have page 1 with one header and footer, which I end with a continuous section break, followed by subsequent pages with no header and page number footers. I then will use a page section break, and start the process again with a different header. Well, I now find that when I delete a continuous section break to insert it elsewhere, the page section break above it is ALSO deleted, and then impossible to put back in. This annoying fluke is the bane of my existence. Any help? |
#4
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
Did you read the referenced article? It explains how to do what you want.
And note that AFAIK you have received no "response by Microsoft," certainly not from me; I do not work for Microsoft. My comment that the behavior of section breaks has not changed in Word 2003 was in response to your complaint that "I hate Microsoft Word 2003. It seems like they have really made it less user friendly." Many things may have changed or become less user-friendly in Word 2003, but the behavior of section breaks is not one of them. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA "Ken S." Ken wrote in message ... The response by Microsoft to simply indicate that "the behavior of Word 2003 hasn't changed" is well...very, very stupid indeed. The obvious response to a customer using one's product is to give them clear and concises instructions on how to solve their problem. But Microsoft failed to understand this and instead simply indicated that the behavior of Word 2003 has not changed! Daaa! How 'bout providing a an answer to actual help the person. Here I am with the same problem: I can't figure out how to delete a section but still keep the format of the "preceding" section. There is no help or instructions rendered by Microsoft in this regard. That reallly sucks!! And so does Suzanne's response! "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: This behavior has not changed in Word 2003. See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting...thSections.htm -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Kate Stiteler" Kate wrote in message ... First, let me say that I hate Microsoft Word 2003. It seems like they have really made it less user friendly. I use a lot of Section Breaks when drafting reports. Generally I have page 1 with one header and footer, which I end with a continuous section break, followed by subsequent pages with no header and page number footers. I then will use a page section break, and start the process again with a different header. Well, I now find that when I delete a continuous section break to insert it elsewhere, the page section break above it is ALSO deleted, and then impossible to put back in. This annoying fluke is the bane of my existence. Any help? |
#5
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
Ms. Barnhill -
Did you read the e-mails posted here? Do you realize that there were two separate posters (Kate Stiteler and Ken S.) and not one? I understand that you are a Word MVP and do not work for Microsoft. And for what its worth, my thanks go to you and other volunteers for the time you devote to trying to explain Microsofts flawed products. But, to claim that your post is not representative of Microsoft is disingenuous at best. I linked to this thread on Microsofts website by clicking a link in the Help program for Microsoft Word. So although you may not be a Microsoft employee, Microsoft is definitely using you to try to defend and explain their poor product. Why cant Microsoft themselves respond to this question about their own product? Why do they need to rely on non-employees to explain their product? Regarding Ken S.s post, regardless of your status with respect to Microsoft, this thread is a response by Microsoft and a poor one at that. I had a similar question as Ken S. about the major annoyance of deleting a section break and losing all of the formatting of the section that I am keeping. I read the article that you linked to, but I did not find it to be very helpful. For one thing, the article did not specifically address Ken's (and my) question about deleting a section break without losing the section formatting that precedes that break. Basically, the take-home message is that there is no solution for this problem other than formatting the second section to exactly match the first section before deleting the section break. Regardless of your (and other MVPs) good intentions, the fact remains that Word is a flawed product and this section break nonsense makes no sense at all. In most cultures where Word and other Microsoft products are sold, people write from beginning to end. We write a section, format it, create a section break, and then repeat. Why on earth should we lose the formatting for the first section when we delete the section break? A section break is created when we want a new section, but why is that section break for the new section suddenly imbued with the properties and formatting of the preceding section? That makes no sense. Look at it this way if I have a one-section document with no section breaks, I can apply formatting to that section, right? So why does everything change and all of the formatting for that section is suddenly applied to a section break that I happen to insert at the end of that section? One more complaint and then my rant will be over: I tried to reply to this thread inside the Word Help window, but it didnt work (natch). I had to go online with my favorite browser (Opera, obviously not IE) to find this thread so that I could reply. |
#6
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
The article to which I referred you (both) has a section specifically about
how to preserve section formatting when deleting material at the end of a document. Since the mvps.org server is currently down, I can't point you to the specific section, but it is toward the end. The article explains the way section formatting works. This understanding is basic to working with sections. When you have only a single section, the section formatting is held in the final paragraph mark. When you insert a section break, it holds the formatting for the previous section, and the final paragraph mark holds the formatting for the final section. If you want to delete the section break (and the material following it), you must copy its formatting to the last section first. Microsoft does provide paid support for users. Free support is provided through these NGs. I don't feel any need to support a "poor product." It is a poor workman who blames his tools; you view Word as a "poor product" because you are unwilling to learn how to use it. You will also find, it you want to use these NGs regularly, that an NNTP newsreader such as Outlook Express makes this far easier; see http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA "Steve H" Steve wrote in message ... Ms. Barnhill - Did you read the e-mails posted here? Do you realize that there were two separate posters (Kate Stiteler and Ken S.) and not one? I understand that you are a Word MVP and do not work for Microsoft. And for what it's worth, my thanks go to you and other "volunteers" for the time you devote to trying to explain Microsoft's flawed products. But, to claim that your post is not representative of Microsoft is disingenuous at best. I linked to this thread on Microsoft's website by clicking a link in the Help program for Microsoft Word. So although you may not be a Microsoft employee, Microsoft is definitely using you to try to defend and explain their poor product. Why can't Microsoft themselves respond to this question about their own product? Why do they need to rely on non-employees to explain their product? Regarding Ken S.'s post, regardless of your status with respect to Microsoft, this thread is a "response by Microsoft" and a poor one at that. I had a similar question as Ken S. about the major annoyance of deleting a section break and losing all of the formatting of the section that I am keeping. I read the article that you linked to, but I did not find it to be very helpful. For one thing, the article did not specifically address Ken's (and my) question about deleting a section break without losing the section formatting that precedes that break. Basically, the take-home message is that there is no solution for this problem other than formatting the second section to exactly match the first section before deleting the section break. Regardless of your (and other MVP's) good intentions, the fact remains that Word is a flawed product and this section break nonsense makes no sense at all. In most cultures where Word and other Microsoft products are sold, people write from beginning to end. We write a section, format it, create a section break, and then repeat. Why on earth should we lose the formatting for the first section when we delete the section break? A section break is created when we want a new section, but why is that section break for the new section suddenly imbued with the properties and formatting of the preceding section? That makes no sense. Look at it this way - if I have a one-section document with no section breaks, I can apply formatting to that section, right? So why does everything change and all of the formatting for that section is suddenly applied to a section break that I happen to insert at the end of that section? One more complaint and then my rant will be over: I tried to reply to this thread inside the Word Help window, but it didn't work (natch). I had to go online with my favorite browser (Opera, obviously not IE) to find this thread so that I could reply. |
#7
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
Ms. Barnhill -
My question was this: is there a way to delete a section break and keep the formatting in the preceding section without having the formatting automatically changed to match the second, deleted section? Based on my own experience, the only way I knew how to do it was to re-format the section after deleting the page break. I read through the entire linked document again. While you are correct that the article does address this question, it offers no solution other than what I have already figured out. Basically, the answer is that there is no way to delete a section break without having the formatting of the second section replace the formatting of the first section. Now, the article did offer some tricks or (not so very short) shortcuts, like copying the section break to the end of the next section prior to deleting the section break. But that is just a trick, as you are still left with an unwanted section break. If you then try to delete that unwanted section break, the formatting change happens anyway. The article offered another solution, in which you change the formatting of the second section to match the formatting of the first section before you delete the section break. But you still have to reformat, right? Regardless of when you do it, the bottom line is that if you want to delete a section break between two sections with different formats, you are going to have to reformat something. Personally, I was hoping that there was some way to change the default settings so that when deleting a page break, the preceding format is maintained, which seems a lot more logical to me. However, there is nothing in that article or in what you have written that provides any answer to the question other than to say thats just the way it is while offering some unsatisfactory shortcuts. I will acknowledge that the article you linked to did provide an explanation about how sections work in Word; I learned a lot and I am grateful. But, at the same time, the article left me even more bewildered about how illogical this design is. I dont think it makes me a poor workman to offer criticism, but if you think it does, then so be it. Microsofts products like Office and Internet Explorer are popular because of Windows bundling and Microsofts business practices. Word is the default word processing program, and it has very little to do with the quality of the program itself. I can think of several better-designed word processing programs and I would use those tools if I could. |
#8
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
The alternative to reformatting after deleting the section break is to copy
the formatting of the next-to-last section into the last section before deleting the break. If it's just a matter of margins and other settings in Page Setup, then this is done quite easily: 1. Place the insertion point in the next-to-last section. 2. Open Page Setup. Without making any changes, click OK. 3. Now move the insertion point to the last section and press F4. This will copy the Page Setup settings you just made in the previous section. For an example of how this works, see http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/DetachEnvelope.htm. If there are headers and footers involved, you'll need to unlink the last section so that it inherits the headers/footers from the previous section. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA "Steve H" wrote in message ... Ms. Barnhill - My question was this: is there a way to delete a section break and keep the formatting in the preceding section without having the formatting automatically changed to match the second, deleted section? Based on my own experience, the only way I knew how to do it was to re-format the section after deleting the page break. I read through the entire linked document again. While you are correct that the article does address this question, it offers no solution other than what I have already figured out. Basically, the answer is that there is no way to delete a section break without having the formatting of the second section replace the formatting of the first section. Now, the article did offer some tricks or (not so very short) shortcuts, like copying the section break to the end of the next section prior to deleting the section break. But that is just a trick, as you are still left with an unwanted section break. If you then try to delete that unwanted section break, the formatting change happens anyway. The article offered another solution, in which you change the formatting of the second section to match the formatting of the first section before you delete the section break. But you still have to reformat, right? Regardless of when you do it, the bottom line is that if you want to delete a section break between two sections with different formats, you are going to have to reformat something. Personally, I was hoping that there was some way to change the default settings so that when deleting a page break, the preceding format is maintained, which seems a lot more logical to me. However, there is nothing in that article or in what you have written that provides any answer to the question other than to say "that's just the way it is" while offering some unsatisfactory shortcuts. I will acknowledge that the article you linked to did provide an explanation about how sections work in Word; I learned a lot and I am grateful. But, at the same time, the article left me even more bewildered about how illogical this "design" is. I don't think it makes me a "poor workman" to offer criticism, but if you think it does, then so be it. Microsoft's products like Office and Internet Explorer are popular because of Windows bundling and Microsoft's business practices. Word is the "default" word processing program, and it has very little to do with the quality of the program itself. I can think of several better-designed word processing programs and I would use those tools if I could. |
#9
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
Thanks for your help.
Steve |
#10
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
Thanks, Suzanne! That really helped.
Just one important remark: I had two sections, where the first one had different header/footer for the first page. In this case, I had to insert a manual page break in the Section 2 before copying the settings from Section 1. "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: This behavior has not changed in Word 2003. See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting...thSections.htm -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Kate Stiteler" Kate wrote in message ... First, let me say that I hate Microsoft Word 2003. It seems like they have really made it less user friendly. I use a lot of Section Breaks when drafting reports. Generally I have page 1 with one header and footer, which I end with a continuous section break, followed by subsequent pages with no header and page number footers. I then will use a page section break, and start the process again with a different header. Well, I now find that when I delete a continuous section break to insert it elsewhere, the page section break above it is ALSO deleted, and then impossible to put back in. This annoying fluke is the bane of my existence. Any help? |
#11
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
Hello, I have to insert some text in 2 columns in my document. The problem is
it is automatically creating a section brake at the formated text and the next page has a different section and page number. I tried to link it to the previous page but it doesn't work, tried to format the page number at the "continue numbering", doesn't work even like that and I really need the page to be continuous in the whole document. I've worked before with columned text and I didn't have this kind of problem... please help me, it's driving me mad "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: This behavior has not changed in Word 2003. See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting...thSections.htm -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Kate Stiteler" Kate wrote in message ... First, let me say that I hate Microsoft Word 2003. It seems like they have really made it less user friendly. I use a lot of Section Breaks when drafting reports. Generally I have page 1 with one header and footer, which I end with a continuous section break, followed by subsequent pages with no header and page number footers. I then will use a page section break, and start the process again with a different header. Well, I now find that when I delete a continuous section break to insert it elsewhere, the page section break above it is ALSO deleted, and then impossible to put back in. This annoying fluke is the bane of my existence. Any help? |
#12
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
Changing the number of columns requires a section break. Presumably the page
numbering is restarting in the multi-column section. Place the insertion point there and then go to Format Page Number and select "Continue from previous section." -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA http://word.mvps.org "opjeshke" wrote in message ... Hello, I have to insert some text in 2 columns in my document. The problem is it is automatically creating a section brake at the formated text and the next page has a different section and page number. I tried to link it to the previous page but it doesn't work, tried to format the page number at the "continue numbering", doesn't work even like that and I really need the page to be continuous in the whole document. I've worked before with columned text and I didn't have this kind of problem... please help me, it's driving me mad "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: This behavior has not changed in Word 2003. See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting...thSections.htm -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Kate Stiteler" Kate wrote in message ... First, let me say that I hate Microsoft Word 2003. It seems like they have really made it less user friendly. I use a lot of Section Breaks when drafting reports. Generally I have page 1 with one header and footer, which I end with a continuous section break, followed by subsequent pages with no header and page number footers. I then will use a page section break, and start the process again with a different header. Well, I now find that when I delete a continuous section break to insert it elsewhere, the page section break above it is ALSO deleted, and then impossible to put back in. This annoying fluke is the bane of my existence. Any help? |
#13
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
While appreciating and acknowledging the great work that you (Suzanne) and
other MVPs do in supporting the Microsoft user community, I must reprove you for your words, "a poor workman...blames his tools; you view Word as a poor product because you are unwilling to learn how to use it." I have been a user of Word since version 2 and probably know as much about it as you do. I am a great fan of many of its features, but Microsoft's decision about how to handle section breaks and their deletion is simply wrong. It is (a) counter-intuitive, and (b) puts the user to a great deal of work to right the wrong, in what is supposed to be and generally is a productivity tool! It doesn't matter whether the work-around is documented or not - it shouldn't be needed at all. Conceptually, it would not be difficult for Microsoft to add an object to the Word object model, as a property of the Document object. Let's call the new object "SectionsInSequence". It would keep track of section formatting in the order that users intuitively expect it to be tracked, and when a section was deleted would re-apply the formatting of the preceding section, not the one that had gone. That is, the SectionsInSequence object would automatically apply the workaround instead of leaving it to the user. Best regards. "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: The article to which I referred you (both) has a section specifically about how to preserve section formatting when deleting material at the end of a document. Since the mvps.org server is currently down, I can't point you to the specific section, but it is toward the end. The article explains the way section formatting works. This understanding is basic to working with sections. When you have only a single section, the section formatting is held in the final paragraph mark. When you insert a section break, it holds the formatting for the previous section, and the final paragraph mark holds the formatting for the final section. If you want to delete the section break (and the material following it), you must copy its formatting to the last section first. Microsoft does provide paid support for users. Free support is provided through these NGs. I don't feel any need to support a "poor product." It is a poor workman who blames his tools; you view Word as a "poor product" because you are unwilling to learn how to use it. You will also find, it you want to use these NGs regularly, that an NNTP newsreader such as Outlook Express makes this far easier; see http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA "Steve H" Steve wrote in message ... Ms. Barnhill - Did you read the e-mails posted here? Do you realize that there were two separate posters (Kate Stiteler and Ken S.) and not one? I understand that you are a Word MVP and do not work for Microsoft. And for what it's worth, my thanks go to you and other "volunteers" for the time you devote to trying to explain Microsoft's flawed products. But, to claim that your post is not representative of Microsoft is disingenuous at best. I linked to this thread on Microsoft's website by clicking a link in the Help program for Microsoft Word. So although you may not be a Microsoft employee, Microsoft is definitely using you to try to defend and explain their poor product. Why can't Microsoft themselves respond to this question about their own product? Why do they need to rely on non-employees to explain their product? Regarding Ken S.'s post, regardless of your status with respect to Microsoft, this thread is a "response by Microsoft" and a poor one at that. I had a similar question as Ken S. about the major annoyance of deleting a section break and losing all of the formatting of the section that I am keeping. I read the article that you linked to, but I did not find it to be very helpful. For one thing, the article did not specifically address Ken's (and my) question about deleting a section break without losing the section formatting that precedes that break. Basically, the take-home message is that there is no solution for this problem other than formatting the second section to exactly match the first section before deleting the section break. Regardless of your (and other MVP's) good intentions, the fact remains that Word is a flawed product and this section break nonsense makes no sense at all. In most cultures where Word and other Microsoft products are sold, people write from beginning to end. We write a section, format it, create a section break, and then repeat. Why on earth should we lose the formatting for the first section when we delete the section break? A section break is created when we want a new section, but why is that section break for the new section suddenly imbued with the properties and formatting of the preceding section? That makes no sense. Look at it this way - if I have a one-section document with no section breaks, I can apply formatting to that section, right? So why does everything change and all of the formatting for that section is suddenly applied to a section break that I happen to insert at the end of that section? One more complaint and then my rant will be over: I tried to reply to this thread inside the Word Help window, but it didn't work (natch). I had to go online with my favorite browser (Opera, obviously not IE) to find this thread so that I could reply. |
#14
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
Suzanne,
Thank you for your help, as I have a similar problem. Please don't take my comments as a personal attack, but I hope that you can gain perspective from them. I also want to comment that I'm sure it is difficult to deal with people who are frustrated by not being able to do the things that they are trying to do because they haven't learned the right way to accomplish them. But Microsoft sells Office as a 'Productivity Tool', aims it at the business market and charges PREMIUM prices for their products. Microsoft has been marketing Office Products as simple to use, so that any one can pick them up and get things done. Most of the people who are now using Microsoft Office products don't have college courses on these specific products. I am a draftsperson, who has more computer experience than most. I have taken some introductory courses on Microsoft Office products, enough to know that there are some powerful tools available to format documents, but so long ago that I can't remember specifics. For Microsoft to have such counter intuitive formatting in a PREMIUM product that is marketed as an easy to use, 'Productivity Tool', is un-defendable. It is just another indication of Microsoft's arrogance. I find it sad that almost all of the documents that I open either from our office or sent to us from customers or suppliers are completely unformatted. Most users still use the Return Key to end lines and Space Bar to indent. When I talk to some of the people who have generated these documents, its not that they dont know that they can do it better, its that it takes too much time and is too hard to correct. I think that much of the reason is that to really format a document correctly is still overly complicated and silly counter intuitive issues like page formatting at the end of a section is enough to take most users over the edge. If you work with Word in depth everyday you can probably make it dance, but Microsoft is selling this to ordinary people who are just trying to get something done. In my case, I have a couple of weeks to create a Drafting Standards Document. I dont really have time to take a three or four day course to brush up on how to make MS Words formatting work. If Microsoft wants to make the big bucks for their Productivity Tools they should be addressing confusing, but its by design. type issues to make them not confusing. Regards, Kent "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: The article to which I referred you (both) has a section specifically about how to preserve section formatting when deleting material at the end of a document. Since the mvps.org server is currently down, I can't point you to the specific section, but it is toward the end. The article explains the way section formatting works. This understanding is basic to working with sections. When you have only a single section, the section formatting is held in the final paragraph mark. When you insert a section break, it holds the formatting for the previous section, and the final paragraph mark holds the formatting for the final section. If you want to delete the section break (and the material following it), you must copy its formatting to the last section first. Microsoft does provide paid support for users. Free support is provided through these NGs. I don't feel any need to support a "poor product." It is a poor workman who blames his tools; you view Word as a "poor product" because you are unwilling to learn how to use it. You will also find, it you want to use these NGs regularly, that an NNTP newsreader such as Outlook Express makes this far easier; see http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA "Steve H" Steve wrote in message ... Ms. Barnhill - Did you read the e-mails posted here? Do you realize that there were two separate posters (Kate Stiteler and Ken S.) and not one? I understand that you are a Word MVP and do not work for Microsoft. And for what it's worth, my thanks go to you and other "volunteers" for the time you devote to trying to explain Microsoft's flawed products. But, to claim that your post is not representative of Microsoft is disingenuous at best. I linked to this thread on Microsoft's website by clicking a link in the Help program for Microsoft Word. So although you may not be a Microsoft employee, Microsoft is definitely using you to try to defend and explain their poor product. Why can't Microsoft themselves respond to this question about their own product? Why do they need to rely on non-employees to explain their product? Regarding Ken S.'s post, regardless of your status with respect to Microsoft, this thread is a "response by Microsoft" and a poor one at that. I had a similar question as Ken S. about the major annoyance of deleting a section break and losing all of the formatting of the section that I am keeping. I read the article that you linked to, but I did not find it to be very helpful. For one thing, the article did not specifically address Ken's (and my) question about deleting a section break without losing the section formatting that precedes that break. Basically, the take-home message is that there is no solution for this problem other than formatting the second section to exactly match the first section before deleting the section break. Regardless of your (and other MVP's) good intentions, the fact remains that Word is a flawed product and this section break nonsense makes no sense at all. In most cultures where Word and other Microsoft products are sold, people write from beginning to end. We write a section, format it, create a section break, and then repeat. Why on earth should we lose the formatting for the first section when we delete the section break? A section break is created when we want a new section, but why is that section break for the new section suddenly imbued with the properties and formatting of the preceding section? That makes no sense. Look at it this way - if I have a one-section document with no section breaks, I can apply formatting to that section, right? So why does everything change and all of the formatting for that section is suddenly applied to a section break that I happen to insert at the end of that section? One more complaint and then my rant will be over: I tried to reply to this thread inside the Word Help window, but it didn't work (natch). I had to go online with my favorite browser (Opera, obviously not IE) to find this thread so that I could reply. |
#15
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
I just tried the following and it worked:
- Place you cursor after the last word before the section break. - Add a carriage return, to get the section break to show-up on another line. - Move the cursor to the far left of the document until it changes - selecting the entire line. - Hit the delete key. I hope this helps! "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: Changing the number of columns requires a section break. Presumably the page numbering is restarting in the multi-column section. Place the insertion point there and then go to Format Page Number and select "Continue from previous section." -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA http://word.mvps.org "opjeshke" wrote in message ... Hello, I have to insert some text in 2 columns in my document. The problem is it is automatically creating a section brake at the formated text and the next page has a different section and page number. I tried to link it to the previous page but it doesn't work, tried to format the page number at the "continue numbering", doesn't work even like that and I really need the page to be continuous in the whole document. I've worked before with columned text and I didn't have this kind of problem... please help me, it's driving me mad "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: This behavior has not changed in Word 2003. See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting...thSections.htm -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Kate Stiteler" Kate wrote in message ... First, let me say that I hate Microsoft Word 2003. It seems like they have really made it less user friendly. I use a lot of Section Breaks when drafting reports. Generally I have page 1 with one header and footer, which I end with a continuous section break, followed by subsequent pages with no header and page number footers. I then will use a page section break, and start the process again with a different header. Well, I now find that when I delete a continuous section break to insert it elsewhere, the page section break above it is ALSO deleted, and then impossible to put back in. This annoying fluke is the bane of my existence. Any help? |
#16
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
These instructions are for deleting a section break, but the OP wanted to
know how to retain formatting when deleting a section break, which wasn't possible in that case because a multi-column section was involved. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA http://word.mvps.org "Virginia" wrote in message ... I just tried the following and it worked: - Place you cursor after the last word before the section break. - Add a carriage return, to get the section break to show-up on another line. - Move the cursor to the far left of the document until it changes - selecting the entire line. - Hit the delete key. I hope this helps! "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: Changing the number of columns requires a section break. Presumably the page numbering is restarting in the multi-column section. Place the insertion point there and then go to Format Page Number and select "Continue from previous section." -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA http://word.mvps.org "opjeshke" wrote in message ... Hello, I have to insert some text in 2 columns in my document. The problem is it is automatically creating a section brake at the formated text and the next page has a different section and page number. I tried to link it to the previous page but it doesn't work, tried to format the page number at the "continue numbering", doesn't work even like that and I really need the page to be continuous in the whole document. I've worked before with columned text and I didn't have this kind of problem... please help me, it's driving me mad "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: This behavior has not changed in Word 2003. See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting...thSections.htm -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Kate Stiteler" Kate wrote in message ... First, let me say that I hate Microsoft Word 2003. It seems like they have really made it less user friendly. I use a lot of Section Breaks when drafting reports. Generally I have page 1 with one header and footer, which I end with a continuous section break, followed by subsequent pages with no header and page number footers. I then will use a page section break, and start the process again with a different header. Well, I now find that when I delete a continuous section break to insert it elsewhere, the page section break above it is ALSO deleted, and then impossible to put back in. This annoying fluke is the bane of my existence. Any help? |
#17
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
Let me simply say that I agree - this "feature" is one of the stupidest I've
ever encountered. I've been using Word for over 20 years, have an IQ well over 150, and I still cannot figure out how to delete Section 2 from a two-section document without losing my formatting. Microsoft, you should be ashamed of yourselves. -- Max "Kent D." wrote: Suzanne, Thank you for your help, as I have a similar problem. Please don't take my comments as a personal attack, but I hope that you can gain perspective from them. I also want to comment that I'm sure it is difficult to deal with people who are frustrated by not being able to do the things that they are trying to do because they haven't learned the right way to accomplish them. But Microsoft sells Office as a 'Productivity Tool', aims it at the business market and charges PREMIUM prices for their products. Microsoft has been marketing Office Products as simple to use, so that any one can pick them up and get things done. Most of the people who are now using Microsoft Office products don't have college courses on these specific products. I am a draftsperson, who has more computer experience than most. I have taken some introductory courses on Microsoft Office products, enough to know that there are some powerful tools available to format documents, but so long ago that I can't remember specifics. For Microsoft to have such counter intuitive formatting in a PREMIUM product that is marketed as an easy to use, 'Productivity Tool', is un-defendable. It is just another indication of Microsoft's arrogance. I find it sad that almost all of the documents that I open either from our office or sent to us from customers or suppliers are completely unformatted. Most users still use the Return Key to end lines and Space Bar to indent. When I talk to some of the people who have generated these documents, its not that they dont know that they can do it better, its that it takes too much time and is too hard to correct. I think that much of the reason is that to really format a document correctly is still overly complicated and silly counter intuitive issues like page formatting at the end of a section is enough to take most users over the edge. If you work with Word in depth everyday you can probably make it dance, but Microsoft is selling this to ordinary people who are just trying to get something done. In my case, I have a couple of weeks to create a Drafting Standards Document. I dont really have time to take a three or four day course to brush up on how to make MS Words formatting work. If Microsoft wants to make the big bucks for their Productivity Tools they should be addressing confusing, but its by design. type issues to make them not confusing. Regards, Kent "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: The article to which I referred you (both) has a section specifically about how to preserve section formatting when deleting material at the end of a document. Since the mvps.org server is currently down, I can't point you to the specific section, but it is toward the end. The article explains the way section formatting works. This understanding is basic to working with sections. When you have only a single section, the section formatting is held in the final paragraph mark. When you insert a section break, it holds the formatting for the previous section, and the final paragraph mark holds the formatting for the final section. If you want to delete the section break (and the material following it), you must copy its formatting to the last section first. Microsoft does provide paid support for users. Free support is provided through these NGs. I don't feel any need to support a "poor product." It is a poor workman who blames his tools; you view Word as a "poor product" because you are unwilling to learn how to use it. You will also find, it you want to use these NGs regularly, that an NNTP newsreader such as Outlook Express makes this far easier; see http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA "Steve H" Steve wrote in message ... Ms. Barnhill - Did you read the e-mails posted here? Do you realize that there were two separate posters (Kate Stiteler and Ken S.) and not one? I understand that you are a Word MVP and do not work for Microsoft. And for what it's worth, my thanks go to you and other "volunteers" for the time you devote to trying to explain Microsoft's flawed products. But, to claim that your post is not representative of Microsoft is disingenuous at best. I linked to this thread on Microsoft's website by clicking a link in the Help program for Microsoft Word. So although you may not be a Microsoft employee, Microsoft is definitely using you to try to defend and explain their poor product. Why can't Microsoft themselves respond to this question about their own product? Why do they need to rely on non-employees to explain their product? Regarding Ken S.'s post, regardless of your status with respect to Microsoft, this thread is a "response by Microsoft" and a poor one at that. I had a similar question as Ken S. about the major annoyance of deleting a section break and losing all of the formatting of the section that I am keeping. I read the article that you linked to, but I did not find it to be very helpful. For one thing, the article did not specifically address Ken's (and my) question about deleting a section break without losing the section formatting that precedes that break. Basically, the take-home message is that there is no solution for this problem other than formatting the second section to exactly match the first section before deleting the section break. Regardless of your (and other MVP's) good intentions, the fact remains that Word is a flawed product and this section break nonsense makes no sense at all. In most cultures where Word and other Microsoft products are sold, people write from beginning to end. We write a section, format it, create a section break, and then repeat. Why on earth should we lose the formatting for the first section when we delete the section break? A section break is created when we want a new section, but why is that section break for the new section suddenly imbued with the properties and formatting of the preceding section? That makes no sense. Look at it this way - if I have a one-section document with no section breaks, I can apply formatting to that section, right? So why does everything change and all of the formatting for that section is suddenly applied to a section break that I happen to insert at the end of that section? One more complaint and then my rant will be over: I tried to reply to this thread inside the Word Help window, but it didn't work (natch). I had to go online with my favorite browser (Opera, obviously not IE) to find this thread so that I could reply. |
#18
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
Note that the MVPs don't work for Microsoft. Complaints should be targeted
directly to Microsoft (although I do understand the need to vent at times). Also, I'd like to point out, as Suzanne did in her reply, that everything you need to know about sections is explained at http://word.mvps.org/faqs/formatting...thSections.htm. -- Stefan Blom Microsoft Word MVP "Max" wrote in message ... Let me simply say that I agree - this "feature" is one of the stupidest I've ever encountered. I've been using Word for over 20 years, have an IQ well over 150, and I still cannot figure out how to delete Section 2 from a two-section document without losing my formatting. Microsoft, you should be ashamed of yourselves. -- Max "Kent D." wrote: Suzanne, Thank you for your help, as I have a similar problem. Please don't take my comments as a personal attack, but I hope that you can gain perspective from them. I also want to comment that I'm sure it is difficult to deal with people who are frustrated by not being able to do the things that they are trying to do because they haven't learned the right way to accomplish them. But Microsoft sells Office as a 'Productivity Tool', aims it at the business market and charges PREMIUM prices for their products. Microsoft has been marketing Office Products as simple to use, so that any one can pick them up and get things done. Most of the people who are now using Microsoft Office products don't have college courses on these specific products. I am a draftsperson, who has more computer experience than most. I have taken some introductory courses on Microsoft Office products, enough to know that there are some powerful tools available to format documents, but so long ago that I can't remember specifics. For Microsoft to have such counter intuitive formatting in a PREMIUM product that is marketed as an easy to use, 'Productivity Tool', is un-defendable. It is just another indication of Microsoft's arrogance. I find it sad that almost all of the documents that I open either from our office or sent to us from customers or suppliers are completely unformatted. Most users still use the 'Return Key' to end lines and 'Space Bar' to indent. When I talk to some of the people who have generated these documents, it's not that they don't know that they can do it better, it's that it takes too much time and is too hard to correct. I think that much of the reason is that to really format a document correctly is still overly complicated and silly 'counter intuitive' issues like page formatting at the end of a section is enough to take most user's over the edge. If you work with 'Word' in depth everyday you can probably make it dance, but Microsoft is selling this to ordinary people who are just trying to get something done. In my case, I have a couple of weeks to create a Drafting Standards Document. I don't really have time to take a three or four day course to brush up on how to make MS Word's formatting work. If Microsoft want's to make the big bucks for their 'Productivity Tools' they should be addressing "confusing, but it's "by design"." type issues to make them not confusing. Regards, Kent "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: The article to which I referred you (both) has a section specifically about how to preserve section formatting when deleting material at the end of a document. Since the mvps.org server is currently down, I can't point you to the specific section, but it is toward the end. The article explains the way section formatting works. This understanding is basic to working with sections. When you have only a single section, the section formatting is held in the final paragraph mark. When you insert a section break, it holds the formatting for the previous section, and the final paragraph mark holds the formatting for the final section. If you want to delete the section break (and the material following it), you must copy its formatting to the last section first. Microsoft does provide paid support for users. Free support is provided through these NGs. I don't feel any need to support a "poor product." It is a poor workman who blames his tools; you view Word as a "poor product" because you are unwilling to learn how to use it. You will also find, it you want to use these NGs regularly, that an NNTP newsreader such as Outlook Express makes this far easier; see http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA "Steve H" Steve wrote in message ... Ms. Barnhill - Did you read the e-mails posted here? Do you realize that there were two separate posters (Kate Stiteler and Ken S.) and not one? I understand that you are a Word MVP and do not work for Microsoft. And for what it's worth, my thanks go to you and other "volunteers" for the time you devote to trying to explain Microsoft's flawed products. But, to claim that your post is not representative of Microsoft is disingenuous at best. I linked to this thread on Microsoft's website by clicking a link in the Help program for Microsoft Word. So although you may not be a Microsoft employee, Microsoft is definitely using you to try to defend and explain their poor product. Why can't Microsoft themselves respond to this question about their own product? Why do they need to rely on non-employees to explain their product? Regarding Ken S.'s post, regardless of your status with respect to Microsoft, this thread is a "response by Microsoft" and a poor one at that. I had a similar question as Ken S. about the major annoyance of deleting a section break and losing all of the formatting of the section that I am keeping. I read the article that you linked to, but I did not find it to be very helpful. For one thing, the article did not specifically address Ken's (and my) question about deleting a section break without losing the section formatting that precedes that break. Basically, the take-home message is that there is no solution for this problem other than formatting the second section to exactly match the first section before deleting the section break. Regardless of your (and other MVP's) good intentions, the fact remains that Word is a flawed product and this section break nonsense makes no sense at all. In most cultures where Word and other Microsoft products are sold, people write from beginning to end. We write a section, format it, create a section break, and then repeat. Why on earth should we lose the formatting for the first section when we delete the section break? A section break is created when we want a new section, but why is that section break for the new section suddenly imbued with the properties and formatting of the preceding section? That makes no sense. Look at it this way - if I have a one-section document with no section breaks, I can apply formatting to that section, right? So why does everything change and all of the formatting for that section is suddenly applied to a section break that I happen to insert at the end of that section? One more complaint and then my rant will be over: I tried to reply to this thread inside the Word Help window, but it didn't work (natch). I had to go online with my favorite browser (Opera, obviously not IE) to find this thread so that I could reply. |
#19
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
Finally! An easy to use and understandable answer!
Thanks "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: The alternative to reformatting after deleting the section break is to copy the formatting of the next-to-last section into the last section before deleting the break. If it's just a matter of margins and other settings in Page Setup, then this is done quite easily: 1. Place the insertion point in the next-to-last section. 2. Open Page Setup. Without making any changes, click OK. 3. Now move the insertion point to the last section and press F4. This will copy the Page Setup settings you just made in the previous section. For an example of how this works, see http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/DetachEnvelope.htm. If there are headers and footers involved, you'll need to unlink the last section so that it inherits the headers/footers from the previous section. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA "Steve H" wrote in message ... Ms. Barnhill - My question was this: is there a way to delete a section break and keep the formatting in the preceding section without having the formatting automatically changed to match the second, deleted section? Based on my own experience, the only way I knew how to do it was to re-format the section after deleting the page break. I read through the entire linked document again. While you are correct that the article does address this question, it offers no solution other than what I have already figured out. Basically, the answer is that there is no way to delete a section break without having the formatting of the second section replace the formatting of the first section. Now, the article did offer some tricks or (not so very short) shortcuts, like copying the section break to the end of the next section prior to deleting the section break. But that is just a trick, as you are still left with an unwanted section break. If you then try to delete that unwanted section break, the formatting change happens anyway. The article offered another solution, in which you change the formatting of the second section to match the formatting of the first section before you delete the section break. But you still have to reformat, right? Regardless of when you do it, the bottom line is that if you want to delete a section break between two sections with different formats, you are going to have to reformat something. Personally, I was hoping that there was some way to change the default settings so that when deleting a page break, the preceding format is maintained, which seems a lot more logical to me. However, there is nothing in that article or in what you have written that provides any answer to the question other than to say "that's just the way it is" while offering some unsatisfactory shortcuts. I will acknowledge that the article you linked to did provide an explanation about how sections work in Word; I learned a lot and I am grateful. But, at the same time, the article left me even more bewildered about how illogical this "design" is. I don't think it makes me a "poor workman" to offer criticism, but if you think it does, then so be it. Microsoft's products like Office and Internet Explorer are popular because of Windows bundling and Microsoft's business practices. Word is the "default" word processing program, and it has very little to do with the quality of the program itself. I can think of several better-designed word processing programs and I would use those tools if I could. |
#20
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
I'm glad you found it helpful.
-- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA http://word.mvps.org "David" wrote in message ... Finally! An easy to use and understandable answer! Thanks "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: The alternative to reformatting after deleting the section break is to copy the formatting of the next-to-last section into the last section before deleting the break. If it's just a matter of margins and other settings in Page Setup, then this is done quite easily: 1. Place the insertion point in the next-to-last section. 2. Open Page Setup. Without making any changes, click OK. 3. Now move the insertion point to the last section and press F4. This will copy the Page Setup settings you just made in the previous section. For an example of how this works, see http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/DetachEnvelope.htm. If there are headers and footers involved, you'll need to unlink the last section so that it inherits the headers/footers from the previous section. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA "Steve H" wrote in message ... Ms. Barnhill - My question was this: is there a way to delete a section break and keep the formatting in the preceding section without having the formatting automatically changed to match the second, deleted section? Based on my own experience, the only way I knew how to do it was to re-format the section after deleting the page break. I read through the entire linked document again. While you are correct that the article does address this question, it offers no solution other than what I have already figured out. Basically, the answer is that there is no way to delete a section break without having the formatting of the second section replace the formatting of the first section. Now, the article did offer some tricks or (not so very short) shortcuts, like copying the section break to the end of the next section prior to deleting the section break. But that is just a trick, as you are still left with an unwanted section break. If you then try to delete that unwanted section break, the formatting change happens anyway. The article offered another solution, in which you change the formatting of the second section to match the formatting of the first section before you delete the section break. But you still have to reformat, right? Regardless of when you do it, the bottom line is that if you want to delete a section break between two sections with different formats, you are going to have to reformat something. Personally, I was hoping that there was some way to change the default settings so that when deleting a page break, the preceding format is maintained, which seems a lot more logical to me. However, there is nothing in that article or in what you have written that provides any answer to the question other than to say "that's just the way it is" while offering some unsatisfactory shortcuts. I will acknowledge that the article you linked to did provide an explanation about how sections work in Word; I learned a lot and I am grateful. But, at the same time, the article left me even more bewildered about how illogical this "design" is. I don't think it makes me a "poor workman" to offer criticism, but if you think it does, then so be it. Microsoft's products like Office and Internet Explorer are popular because of Windows bundling and Microsoft's business practices. Word is the "default" word processing program, and it has very little to do with the quality of the program itself. I can think of several better-designed word processing programs and I would use those tools if I could. |
#21
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
Finally an easy workaround to the llogical behaviour of Word. As somebody who
uses Word everyday most parts of the application I love, but I have always had problems deleting sections in my Word documents because invariably the last thing that I want is for the first part of my document to take on the page layout of a following section that I didn't want to keep anyway. Thanks for the help. Chris |
#22
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Keeping Formatting When Deleting a Section Break?
Finally an easy workaround to the llogical behaviour of Word. As somebody who uses Word everyday most parts of the application I love, but I have always had problems deleting sections in my Word documents because invariably the last thing that I want is for the first part of my document to take on the page layout of a following section that I didn't want to keep anyway. Thanks for the help. Chris |
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