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#1
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line & paragraph spacing in Word
Hi
My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Many thanks Jackie D |
#2
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Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the
lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog). I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting himself. In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size, basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing, then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense? ******************* ~Anne Troy www.OfficeArticles.com "Jackie D" wrote in message ... Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Many thanks Jackie D |
#3
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See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm. FWIW,
I don't agree with everything John writes there. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Anne Troy" wrote in message ... Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog). I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting himself. In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size, basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing, then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense? ******************* ~Anne Troy www.OfficeArticles.com "Jackie D" wrote in message ... Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Many thanks Jackie D |
#4
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Hi Jackie:
Sorry, that's a VERY old article, which has been updated several times. The reference to "the space above each body text para" should read "the space BELOW each body text para." In the old days, I used to use space above. That's a technique known as "leading" or, correctly, "extra lead" that comes from the printing industry at the time of hot-metal Linotype presses. Industry practice when electronic typesetting began was to place the "spacing" ABOVE. Microsoft Word does not always behave correctly if you do that. After years of trying to persuade Microsoft to get it right, we all gave up and moved our spacing to BELOW the paragraph :-) I just forgot to update that bit of the article. So now, we tend to define 10 pts space BELOW on every style, and 0 space above. For headings, we tend to define twice the font height ABOVE as well as ten points below. The problem is this: An electronic typesetter SHOULD suppress the extra lead (space above) for every paragraph that lands at the top of a page. Thus the top of the text lines up neatly on the top margin of the page. Word instead uses a complicated formula to decide whether or not it will suppress the space above. Half the time, it gets it wrong, which gives you a "ragged" top margin. Since we can't guarantee that Word will always do the right thing, we found it easier to switch and put our spacing below the style. On Headings, you need space above, since the amount of space you should use is a multiple of the font height of the heading: in other words, it's different for each level of heading. We normally recommend "twice" the font height, so if Heading 1 is set in 22 point font, you would put 44 pts space above on Heading 1. Heading 2 might be 18 point type, and get 36 points above. Both would have ten points below. So the formula for inter-paragraph spacing would become "three quarters of the Body Text line height", instead of "three quarters of the line height." Because the line height will vary with the font size of the largest character on the line. As to "how do you know what the line height is", well I think it says somewhere in that article that it is "about" 120 per cent of the font height. The actual measurement is set by the font designer, who nominates a series of measurements in the font. Fonts all refer to the "base line" of the character, which is the bottom of letters that do not have a descender -- so: the line on which the letters O and U sit. The letters g and j have descenders which extend below the base line. In some fonts, various letters extend ABOVE the notional "top line" of the font. An example might be f: in some fonts the top of the 'f' is above the top line. The font designer will also allow for a space above the letter sufficient to be pleasing to the eye when the letters of his font appear in adjacent lines. This measurement is expressed as a percentage of the font height above the base line. Word reads this information from each of the fonts of the characters on each line, and automatically sets its line height to accommodate the font designer's preference, for the tallest letter on the line. For a line of Times New Roman text with a uniform size, the line height works out to be 120 per cent of the font height. Most other fonts are at or close to this setting. So for 10 pt text, the line height is 12 points and thus the inter-paragraph spacing should be nine points. For 12 point text, the line height is 14.4 pts and the space after should be 11 points, and for 14 point text it should be 16.8 and the space after 12.6. Fashions change, in printing as in everything else. Since that article was written, page designers have opened their text out even more. I would be inclined to use spacing EQUAL to the line height these days. I find the measures suggested in that article now look a little dated and cramped. On the other hand, the use of colour in text is much more prevalent than it was when that article was written; body text is much more likely to be sans-serif than serif these days, and heading fonts are smaller than they were. But perhaps the most important thing I would say is "It's very much a personal preference." If it looks nice to you, then stick with it: there are no rules in this game. White space is the greatest emphasis you can use in print. Judicious use of it is one of the real secrets to a page that communicates well. Rather than trying to use "rules" for this, I strongly encourage you to print a page and look at it. Your own eyes are the best way there is to take this measurement. This is your page: your work -- if it looks right to YOU, it IS right. Don't let anyone tell you different. Hope this helps On 20/7/05 7:29 PM, in article , "Jackie D" wrote: Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to. John McGhie Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410 |
#5
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Hi Anne
Thanks for the explanation. Yes, it makes perfect sense! -- Many thanks JD "Anne Troy" wrote: Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog). I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting himself. In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size, basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing, then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense? ******************* ~Anne Troy www.OfficeArticles.com "Jackie D" wrote in message ... Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Many thanks Jackie D |
#6
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Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the best
practice (to use that horrible corporate word!) -- Many thanks JD "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm. FWIW, I don't agree with everything John writes there. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Anne Troy" wrote in message ... Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog). I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting himself. In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size, basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing, then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense? ******************* ~Anne Troy www.OfficeArticles.com "Jackie D" wrote in message ... Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Many thanks Jackie D |
#7
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Hi John
Thank you so much for your very detailed response. I do appreciate it. Some of the comments you make about typesetters are familiar to me. When I left school some twenty-odd years ago to start career in journalism hot metal Linotype presses were still being used. I think your article is superb, even if it is VERY old now! Could I trouble you for a link to the updated one? -- Many thanks JD "John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macinto" wrote: Hi Jackie: Sorry, that's a VERY old article, which has been updated several times. The reference to "the space above each body text para" should read "the space BELOW each body text para." In the old days, I used to use space above. That's a technique known as "leading" or, correctly, "extra lead" that comes from the printing industry at the time of hot-metal Linotype presses. Industry practice when electronic typesetting began was to place the "spacing" ABOVE. Microsoft Word does not always behave correctly if you do that. After years of trying to persuade Microsoft to get it right, we all gave up and moved our spacing to BELOW the paragraph :-) I just forgot to update that bit of the article. So now, we tend to define 10 pts space BELOW on every style, and 0 space above. For headings, we tend to define twice the font height ABOVE as well as ten points below. The problem is this: An electronic typesetter SHOULD suppress the extra lead (space above) for every paragraph that lands at the top of a page. Thus the top of the text lines up neatly on the top margin of the page. Word instead uses a complicated formula to decide whether or not it will suppress the space above. Half the time, it gets it wrong, which gives you a "ragged" top margin. Since we can't guarantee that Word will always do the right thing, we found it easier to switch and put our spacing below the style. On Headings, you need space above, since the amount of space you should use is a multiple of the font height of the heading: in other words, it's different for each level of heading. We normally recommend "twice" the font height, so if Heading 1 is set in 22 point font, you would put 44 pts space above on Heading 1. Heading 2 might be 18 point type, and get 36 points above. Both would have ten points below. So the formula for inter-paragraph spacing would become "three quarters of the Body Text line height", instead of "three quarters of the line height." Because the line height will vary with the font size of the largest character on the line. As to "how do you know what the line height is", well I think it says somewhere in that article that it is "about" 120 per cent of the font height. The actual measurement is set by the font designer, who nominates a series of measurements in the font. Fonts all refer to the "base line" of the character, which is the bottom of letters that do not have a descender -- so: the line on which the letters O and U sit. The letters g and j have descenders which extend below the base line. In some fonts, various letters extend ABOVE the notional "top line" of the font. An example might be f: in some fonts the top of the 'f' is above the top line. The font designer will also allow for a space above the letter sufficient to be pleasing to the eye when the letters of his font appear in adjacent lines. This measurement is expressed as a percentage of the font height above the base line. Word reads this information from each of the fonts of the characters on each line, and automatically sets its line height to accommodate the font designer's preference, for the tallest letter on the line. For a line of Times New Roman text with a uniform size, the line height works out to be 120 per cent of the font height. Most other fonts are at or close to this setting. So for 10 pt text, the line height is 12 points and thus the inter-paragraph spacing should be nine points. For 12 point text, the line height is 14.4 pts and the space after should be 11 points, and for 14 point text it should be 16.8 and the space after 12.6. Fashions change, in printing as in everything else. Since that article was written, page designers have opened their text out even more. I would be inclined to use spacing EQUAL to the line height these days. I find the measures suggested in that article now look a little dated and cramped. On the other hand, the use of colour in text is much more prevalent than it was when that article was written; body text is much more likely to be sans-serif than serif these days, and heading fonts are smaller than they were. But perhaps the most important thing I would say is "It's very much a personal preference." If it looks nice to you, then stick with it: there are no rules in this game. White space is the greatest emphasis you can use in print. Judicious use of it is one of the real secrets to a page that communicates well. Rather than trying to use "rules" for this, I strongly encourage you to print a page and look at it. Your own eyes are the best way there is to take this measurement. This is your page: your work -- if it looks right to YOU, it IS right. Don't let anyone tell you different. Hope this helps On 20/7/05 7:29 PM, in article , "Jackie D" wrote: Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to. John McGhie Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410 |
#8
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I'm a professional typographer (which means I hardly ever use Word). So I'll
offer my $.02. If I contradict Mr. McGhie, then to heck with it. Body copy should be at least 10 pt. type, and no larger than 12 pt, unless set for people with particularly poor eyesight. Leading (AKA linespacing) should be at least 20% above type size, and probably a bit more. So 11 pt. body copy should be set on 13.5 or 14 pt leading. If you are using paragraph indents, then you should have no extra space between paragraphs. If you prefer to have space between paragraphs, then do not use paragraph indents. Space between paragraphs should be in 1/2 line increments. Our 11/14 body copy would have paragraph spacing of 7 or 14 pt. I prefer to use the Space After rather than Space Before for this. Why will be clear later. Paragraph indents should be in type size increments. Our 11 pt. body copy should have indents of 22, 33, or 44 pts. Use larger indents for wider columns. Subheads should have significant contract from body copy. If using a serif font (Garamond, Times, Georgia) for body copy, use a bold sans-serif font for subheads (Franklin Gothic, Trebuchet, Gill Sans). Set the subhead no more than 1 point larger than body copy. Give the subhead extra space above and no space below. This will keep the subhead tight to the copy it follows and create a double space above it, cueing the reader to a change in subject. You may want several levels of subhead., The one I just stated would be the lowest. Higher levels require more formatting, such as slight increases in point size, restoring space below and adding more space above, using paragraph rules (better than underlining, which should be avoided), or any or all or the above. "Jackie D" wrote: Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the best practice (to use that horrible corporate word!) -- Many thanks JD "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm. FWIW, I don't agree with everything John writes there. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Anne Troy" wrote in message ... Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog). I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting himself. In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size, basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing, then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense? ******************* ~Anne Troy www.OfficeArticles.com "Jackie D" wrote in message ... Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Many thanks Jackie D |
#9
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I'll agree with most of that. The most important point (often disregarded in
legal documents and similar dogs' breakfasts) is that a heading *must* have more Space Before than Space After. Even if you add 3 pts Space After (as Word's heading styles do by default), you need to have 12, 18, 24 pts Space Before (the more leading you have in the body copy, the more space you need before the headings). I tend to type two very different types of copy (aside from letters, flyers, and other odds and ends). One type of document I produce is a consulting report (such as an appraisal or appraisal review), which is printed on Letter-size paper. This usually uses a Body Text style that is close to the Word default: 12 pt TNR with default (Single) line spacing, justified, no first-line indent, and 6 pts Space After. The other type of document is a printed book, usually a trade paperback at 6" x 9". For these I usually use smaller type, first-line indent, and no space between paragraphs, but often the leading is increased to make the book more readable (or more apparently substantial). -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "leftnotracks" wrote in message ... I'm a professional typographer (which means I hardly ever use Word). So I'll offer my $.02. If I contradict Mr. McGhie, then to heck with it. Body copy should be at least 10 pt. type, and no larger than 12 pt, unless set for people with particularly poor eyesight. Leading (AKA linespacing) should be at least 20% above type size, and probably a bit more. So 11 pt. body copy should be set on 13.5 or 14 pt leading. If you are using paragraph indents, then you should have no extra space between paragraphs. If you prefer to have space between paragraphs, then do not use paragraph indents. Space between paragraphs should be in 1/2 line increments. Our 11/14 body copy would have paragraph spacing of 7 or 14 pt. I prefer to use the Space After rather than Space Before for this. Why will be clear later. Paragraph indents should be in type size increments. Our 11 pt. body copy should have indents of 22, 33, or 44 pts. Use larger indents for wider columns. Subheads should have significant contract from body copy. If using a serif font (Garamond, Times, Georgia) for body copy, use a bold sans-serif font for subheads (Franklin Gothic, Trebuchet, Gill Sans). Set the subhead no more than 1 point larger than body copy. Give the subhead extra space above and no space below. This will keep the subhead tight to the copy it follows and create a double space above it, cueing the reader to a change in subject. You may want several levels of subhead., The one I just stated would be the lowest. Higher levels require more formatting, such as slight increases in point size, restoring space below and adding more space above, using paragraph rules (better than underlining, which should be avoided), or any or all or the above. "Jackie D" wrote: Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the best practice (to use that horrible corporate word!) -- Many thanks JD "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm. FWIW, I don't agree with everything John writes there. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Anne Troy" wrote in message ... Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog). I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting himself. In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size, basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing, then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense? ******************* ~Anne Troy www.OfficeArticles.com "Jackie D" wrote in message ... Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Many thanks Jackie D |
#10
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Hello leftnotracks
Well this really is food for thought! Thank you for your expertise. -- Many thanks JD "leftnotracks" wrote: I'm a professional typographer (which means I hardly ever use Word). So I'll offer my $.02. If I contradict Mr. McGhie, then to heck with it. Body copy should be at least 10 pt. type, and no larger than 12 pt, unless set for people with particularly poor eyesight. Leading (AKA linespacing) should be at least 20% above type size, and probably a bit more. So 11 pt. body copy should be set on 13.5 or 14 pt leading. If you are using paragraph indents, then you should have no extra space between paragraphs. If you prefer to have space between paragraphs, then do not use paragraph indents. Space between paragraphs should be in 1/2 line increments. Our 11/14 body copy would have paragraph spacing of 7 or 14 pt. I prefer to use the Space After rather than Space Before for this. Why will be clear later. Paragraph indents should be in type size increments. Our 11 pt. body copy should have indents of 22, 33, or 44 pts. Use larger indents for wider columns. Subheads should have significant contract from body copy. If using a serif font (Garamond, Times, Georgia) for body copy, use a bold sans-serif font for subheads (Franklin Gothic, Trebuchet, Gill Sans). Set the subhead no more than 1 point larger than body copy. Give the subhead extra space above and no space below. This will keep the subhead tight to the copy it follows and create a double space above it, cueing the reader to a change in subject. You may want several levels of subhead., The one I just stated would be the lowest. Higher levels require more formatting, such as slight increases in point size, restoring space below and adding more space above, using paragraph rules (better than underlining, which should be avoided), or any or all or the above. "Jackie D" wrote: Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the best practice (to use that horrible corporate word!) -- Many thanks JD "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm. FWIW, I don't agree with everything John writes there. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Anne Troy" wrote in message ... Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog). I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting himself. In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size, basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing, then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense? ******************* ~Anne Troy www.OfficeArticles.com "Jackie D" wrote in message ... Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Many thanks Jackie D |
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Hi John
I wonder if I can ask you another question about templates again? I am trying to separate out the front page from the body of a document. I clicked in the first page (ie the front matter page) and in page set up I selected Section Start at Odd Page and also Different first page. Page 2 (ie the first page of the body of the document) also says Section start at odd page and I haven't ticked Different first page. And yet, the front page doesn't appear to be divroced from the next page because the formatting and styles I put in the front matter page are also in the next page. So it seems, I haven't actually created a different first page. Do you where I'm going wrong? -- Many thanks JD "John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macinto" wrote: Hi Jackie: Sorry, that's a VERY old article, which has been updated several times. The reference to "the space above each body text para" should read "the space BELOW each body text para." In the old days, I used to use space above. That's a technique known as "leading" or, correctly, "extra lead" that comes from the printing industry at the time of hot-metal Linotype presses. Industry practice when electronic typesetting began was to place the "spacing" ABOVE. Microsoft Word does not always behave correctly if you do that. After years of trying to persuade Microsoft to get it right, we all gave up and moved our spacing to BELOW the paragraph :-) I just forgot to update that bit of the article. So now, we tend to define 10 pts space BELOW on every style, and 0 space above. For headings, we tend to define twice the font height ABOVE as well as ten points below. The problem is this: An electronic typesetter SHOULD suppress the extra lead (space above) for every paragraph that lands at the top of a page. Thus the top of the text lines up neatly on the top margin of the page. Word instead uses a complicated formula to decide whether or not it will suppress the space above. Half the time, it gets it wrong, which gives you a "ragged" top margin. Since we can't guarantee that Word will always do the right thing, we found it easier to switch and put our spacing below the style. On Headings, you need space above, since the amount of space you should use is a multiple of the font height of the heading: in other words, it's different for each level of heading. We normally recommend "twice" the font height, so if Heading 1 is set in 22 point font, you would put 44 pts space above on Heading 1. Heading 2 might be 18 point type, and get 36 points above. Both would have ten points below. So the formula for inter-paragraph spacing would become "three quarters of the Body Text line height", instead of "three quarters of the line height." Because the line height will vary with the font size of the largest character on the line. As to "how do you know what the line height is", well I think it says somewhere in that article that it is "about" 120 per cent of the font height. The actual measurement is set by the font designer, who nominates a series of measurements in the font. Fonts all refer to the "base line" of the character, which is the bottom of letters that do not have a descender -- so: the line on which the letters O and U sit. The letters g and j have descenders which extend below the base line. In some fonts, various letters extend ABOVE the notional "top line" of the font. An example might be f: in some fonts the top of the 'f' is above the top line. The font designer will also allow for a space above the letter sufficient to be pleasing to the eye when the letters of his font appear in adjacent lines. This measurement is expressed as a percentage of the font height above the base line. Word reads this information from each of the fonts of the characters on each line, and automatically sets its line height to accommodate the font designer's preference, for the tallest letter on the line. For a line of Times New Roman text with a uniform size, the line height works out to be 120 per cent of the font height. Most other fonts are at or close to this setting. So for 10 pt text, the line height is 12 points and thus the inter-paragraph spacing should be nine points. For 12 point text, the line height is 14.4 pts and the space after should be 11 points, and for 14 point text it should be 16.8 and the space after 12.6. Fashions change, in printing as in everything else. Since that article was written, page designers have opened their text out even more. I would be inclined to use spacing EQUAL to the line height these days. I find the measures suggested in that article now look a little dated and cramped. On the other hand, the use of colour in text is much more prevalent than it was when that article was written; body text is much more likely to be sans-serif than serif these days, and heading fonts are smaller than they were. But perhaps the most important thing I would say is "It's very much a personal preference." If it looks nice to you, then stick with it: there are no rules in this game. White space is the greatest emphasis you can use in print. Judicious use of it is one of the real secrets to a page that communicates well. Rather than trying to use "rules" for this, I strongly encourage you to print a page and look at it. Your own eyes are the best way there is to take this measurement. This is your page: your work -- if it looks right to YOU, it IS right. Don't let anyone tell you different. Hope this helps On 20/7/05 7:29 PM, in article , "Jackie D" wrote: Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to. John McGhie Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410 |
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Sounds like you need to unlink sections 1 and 2, they are linked by default.
See "what happens when you have more than one section" on this page: http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm Also, "different first page" only applies *within* a section. Also, in Page Setup be sure to pay attention to the "apply to" menu. See also: Also, re your previous question to John--he just dropped in because someone alerted him to the thread, and may have now gone away again. I don't think there is a link to the updated article--I think what John meant is that with lots of edits and updates, errors got overlooked. On 7/26/05 9:10 AM, "Jackie D" wrote: Hi John I wonder if I can ask you another question about templates again? I am trying to separate out the front page from the body of a document. I clicked in the first page (ie the front matter page) and in page set up I selected Section Start at Odd Page and also Different first page. Page 2 (ie the first page of the body of the document) also says Section start at odd page and I haven't ticked Different first page. And yet, the front page doesn't appear to be divroced from the next page because the formatting and styles I put in the front matter page are also in the next page. So it seems, I haven't actually created a different first page. Do you where I'm going wrong? -- Daiya Mitchell, MVP Mac/Word Word FAQ: http://www.word.mvps.org/ MacWord Tips: http://www.word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/ What's an MVP? A volunteer! Read the FAQ: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/ |
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Sorry, accidentally hit send. Second time today.
See also: http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting...rontMatter.htm Generally, if you have a simple doc with 1 title page and no chapters, you can use *either* an unlinked section break *or* different first page (preferred), but don't need both. |
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Hi Daiya
The thing is I followed the steps in a word.mvps article and used the Different First Page but the pages still appear to be linked. So that when I formatted the second page text, the first page formatting went all over the place. What am I doing wrong? Thanks for answering my other query to John... -- Many thanks JD "Daiya Mitchell" wrote: Sorry, accidentally hit send. Second time today. See also: http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting...rontMatter.htm Generally, if you have a simple doc with 1 title page and no chapters, you can use *either* an unlinked section break *or* different first page (preferred), but don't need both. |
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"Different first page" applies only to headers and footers. If you need to
make changes in the page layout (such as margins or vertical alignment), you'll need to insert a section break (and make sure any changes in Page Setup are applied to "This section"). If you're talking about paragraph styles and other such formatting, however, note that these apply to the entire document. There is no way to have different styles with the same name in different sections. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Jackie D" wrote in message ... Hi John I wonder if I can ask you another question about templates again? I am trying to separate out the front page from the body of a document. I clicked in the first page (ie the front matter page) and in page set up I selected Section Start at Odd Page and also Different first page. Page 2 (ie the first page of the body of the document) also says Section start at odd page and I haven't ticked Different first page. And yet, the front page doesn't appear to be divroced from the next page because the formatting and styles I put in the front matter page are also in the next page. So it seems, I haven't actually created a different first page. Do you where I'm going wrong? -- Many thanks JD "John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macinto" wrote: Hi Jackie: Sorry, that's a VERY old article, which has been updated several times. The reference to "the space above each body text para" should read "the space BELOW each body text para." In the old days, I used to use space above. That's a technique known as "leading" or, correctly, "extra lead" that comes from the printing industry at the time of hot-metal Linotype presses. Industry practice when electronic typesetting began was to place the "spacing" ABOVE. Microsoft Word does not always behave correctly if you do that. After years of trying to persuade Microsoft to get it right, we all gave up and moved our spacing to BELOW the paragraph :-) I just forgot to update that bit of the article. So now, we tend to define 10 pts space BELOW on every style, and 0 space above. For headings, we tend to define twice the font height ABOVE as well as ten points below. The problem is this: An electronic typesetter SHOULD suppress the extra lead (space above) for every paragraph that lands at the top of a page. Thus the top of the text lines up neatly on the top margin of the page. Word instead uses a complicated formula to decide whether or not it will suppress the space above. Half the time, it gets it wrong, which gives you a "ragged" top margin. Since we can't guarantee that Word will always do the right thing, we found it easier to switch and put our spacing below the style. On Headings, you need space above, since the amount of space you should use is a multiple of the font height of the heading: in other words, it's different for each level of heading. We normally recommend "twice" the font height, so if Heading 1 is set in 22 point font, you would put 44 pts space above on Heading 1. Heading 2 might be 18 point type, and get 36 points above. Both would have ten points below. So the formula for inter-paragraph spacing would become "three quarters of the Body Text line height", instead of "three quarters of the line height." Because the line height will vary with the font size of the largest character on the line. As to "how do you know what the line height is", well I think it says somewhere in that article that it is "about" 120 per cent of the font height. The actual measurement is set by the font designer, who nominates a series of measurements in the font. Fonts all refer to the "base line" of the character, which is the bottom of letters that do not have a descender -- so: the line on which the letters O and U sit. The letters g and j have descenders which extend below the base line. In some fonts, various letters extend ABOVE the notional "top line" of the font. An example might be f: in some fonts the top of the 'f' is above the top line. The font designer will also allow for a space above the letter sufficient to be pleasing to the eye when the letters of his font appear in adjacent lines. This measurement is expressed as a percentage of the font height above the base line. Word reads this information from each of the fonts of the characters on each line, and automatically sets its line height to accommodate the font designer's preference, for the tallest letter on the line. For a line of Times New Roman text with a uniform size, the line height works out to be 120 per cent of the font height. Most other fonts are at or close to this setting. So for 10 pt text, the line height is 12 points and thus the inter-paragraph spacing should be nine points. For 12 point text, the line height is 14.4 pts and the space after should be 11 points, and for 14 point text it should be 16.8 and the space after 12.6. Fashions change, in printing as in everything else. Since that article was written, page designers have opened their text out even more. I would be inclined to use spacing EQUAL to the line height these days. I find the measures suggested in that article now look a little dated and cramped. On the other hand, the use of colour in text is much more prevalent than it was when that article was written; body text is much more likely to be sans-serif than serif these days, and heading fonts are smaller than they were. But perhaps the most important thing I would say is "It's very much a personal preference." If it looks nice to you, then stick with it: there are no rules in this game. White space is the greatest emphasis you can use in print. Judicious use of it is one of the real secrets to a page that communicates well. Rather than trying to use "rules" for this, I strongly encourage you to print a page and look at it. Your own eyes are the best way there is to take this measurement. This is your page: your work -- if it looks right to YOU, it IS right. Don't let anyone tell you different. Hope this helps On 20/7/05 7:29 PM, in article , "Jackie D" wrote: Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not me unless I ask you to. John McGhie Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410 |
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Oh I see! No wonder I've been having such difficulty. Thank you again,
Suzanne. I reckon I've used up a year's quota of questions on this site over the past two or three weeks. I'll try to stay away for a while! -- Many thanks JD "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: "Different first page" applies only to headers and footers. If you need to make changes in the page layout (such as margins or vertical alignment), you'll need to insert a section break (and make sure any changes in Page Setup are applied to "This section"). If you're talking about paragraph styles and other such formatting, however, note that these apply to the entire document. There is no way to have different styles with the same name in different sections. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Jackie D" wrote in message ... Hi John I wonder if I can ask you another question about templates again? I am trying to separate out the front page from the body of a document. I clicked in the first page (ie the front matter page) and in page set up I selected Section Start at Odd Page and also Different first page. Page 2 (ie the first page of the body of the document) also says Section start at odd page and I haven't ticked Different first page. And yet, the front page doesn't appear to be divroced from the next page because the formatting and styles I put in the front matter page are also in the next page. So it seems, I haven't actually created a different first page. Do you where I'm going wrong? -- Many thanks JD "John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macinto" wrote: Hi Jackie: Sorry, that's a VERY old article, which has been updated several times. The reference to "the space above each body text para" should read "the space BELOW each body text para." In the old days, I used to use space above. That's a technique known as "leading" or, correctly, "extra lead" that comes from the printing industry at the time of hot-metal Linotype presses. Industry practice when electronic typesetting began was to place the "spacing" ABOVE. Microsoft Word does not always behave correctly if you do that. After years of trying to persuade Microsoft to get it right, we all gave up and moved our spacing to BELOW the paragraph :-) I just forgot to update that bit of the article. So now, we tend to define 10 pts space BELOW on every style, and 0 space above. For headings, we tend to define twice the font height ABOVE as well as ten points below. The problem is this: An electronic typesetter SHOULD suppress the extra lead (space above) for every paragraph that lands at the top of a page. Thus the top of the text lines up neatly on the top margin of the page. Word instead uses a complicated formula to decide whether or not it will suppress the space above. Half the time, it gets it wrong, which gives you a "ragged" top margin. Since we can't guarantee that Word will always do the right thing, we found it easier to switch and put our spacing below the style. On Headings, you need space above, since the amount of space you should use is a multiple of the font height of the heading: in other words, it's different for each level of heading. We normally recommend "twice" the font height, so if Heading 1 is set in 22 point font, you would put 44 pts space above on Heading 1. Heading 2 might be 18 point type, and get 36 points above. Both would have ten points below. So the formula for inter-paragraph spacing would become "three quarters of the Body Text line height", instead of "three quarters of the line height." Because the line height will vary with the font size of the largest character on the line. As to "how do you know what the line height is", well I think it says somewhere in that article that it is "about" 120 per cent of the font height. The actual measurement is set by the font designer, who nominates a series of measurements in the font. Fonts all refer to the "base line" of the character, which is the bottom of letters that do not have a descender -- so: the line on which the letters O and U sit. The letters g and j have descenders which extend below the base line. In some fonts, various letters extend ABOVE the notional "top line" of the font. An example might be f: in some fonts the top of the 'f' is above the top line. The font designer will also allow for a space above the letter sufficient to be pleasing to the eye when the letters of his font appear in adjacent lines. This measurement is expressed as a percentage of the font height above the base line. Word reads this information from each of the fonts of the characters on each line, and automatically sets its line height to accommodate the font designer's preference, for the tallest letter on the line. For a line of Times New Roman text with a uniform size, the line height works out to be 120 per cent of the font height. Most other fonts are at or close to this setting. So for 10 pt text, the line height is 12 points and thus the inter-paragraph spacing should be nine points. For 12 point text, the line height is 14.4 pts and the space after should be 11 points, and for 14 point text it should be 16.8 and the space after 12.6. Fashions change, in printing as in everything else. Since that article was written, page designers have opened their text out even more. I would be inclined to use spacing EQUAL to the line height these days. I find the measures suggested in that article now look a little dated and cramped. On the other hand, the use of colour in text is much more prevalent than it was when that article was written; body text is much more likely to be sans-serif than serif these days, and heading fonts are smaller than they were. But perhaps the most important thing I would say is "It's very much a personal preference." If it looks nice to you, then stick with it: there are no rules in this game. White space is the greatest emphasis you can use in print. Judicious use of it is one of the real secrets to a page that communicates well. Rather than trying to use "rules" for this, I strongly encourage you to print a page and look at it. Your own eyes are the best way there is to take this measurement. This is your page: your work -- if it looks right to YOU, it IS right. Don't let anyone tell you different. Hope this helps On 20/7/05 7:29 PM, in article , "Jackie D" wrote: Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not me unless I ask you to. John McGhie Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410 |
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line & paragraph spacing in Word
Susan,
Can you clarify something for me? When using Space before and Space after, if you have a paragraph style that has 6 after, and a heading with 6 before, with the spacing between the paragraph and the header be 6 pt or does it add the "before" and "after" together to give a total space of 12? I'm trying to set up a style sheet for some standard documents and Word seems inconsistent in how it handles the space before and after. -- LAC "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: I'll agree with most of that. The most important point (often disregarded in legal documents and similar dogs' breakfasts) is that a heading *must* have more Space Before than Space After. Even if you add 3 pts Space After (as Word's heading styles do by default), you need to have 12, 18, 24 pts Space Before (the more leading you have in the body copy, the more space you need before the headings). I tend to type two very different types of copy (aside from letters, flyers, and other odds and ends). One type of document I produce is a consulting report (such as an appraisal or appraisal review), which is printed on Letter-size paper. This usually uses a Body Text style that is close to the Word default: 12 pt TNR with default (Single) line spacing, justified, no first-line indent, and 6 pts Space After. The other type of document is a printed book, usually a trade paperback at 6" x 9". For these I usually use smaller type, first-line indent, and no space between paragraphs, but often the leading is increased to make the book more readable (or more apparently substantial). -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "leftnotracks" wrote in message ... I'm a professional typographer (which means I hardly ever use Word). So I'll offer my $.02. If I contradict Mr. McGhie, then to heck with it. Body copy should be at least 10 pt. type, and no larger than 12 pt, unless set for people with particularly poor eyesight. Leading (AKA linespacing) should be at least 20% above type size, and probably a bit more. So 11 pt. body copy should be set on 13.5 or 14 pt leading. If you are using paragraph indents, then you should have no extra space between paragraphs. If you prefer to have space between paragraphs, then do not use paragraph indents. Space between paragraphs should be in 1/2 line increments. Our 11/14 body copy would have paragraph spacing of 7 or 14 pt. I prefer to use the Space After rather than Space Before for this. Why will be clear later. Paragraph indents should be in type size increments. Our 11 pt. body copy should have indents of 22, 33, or 44 pts. Use larger indents for wider columns. Subheads should have significant contract from body copy. If using a serif font (Garamond, Times, Georgia) for body copy, use a bold sans-serif font for subheads (Franklin Gothic, Trebuchet, Gill Sans). Set the subhead no more than 1 point larger than body copy. Give the subhead extra space above and no space below. This will keep the subhead tight to the copy it follows and create a double space above it, cueing the reader to a change in subject. You may want several levels of subhead., The one I just stated would be the lowest. Higher levels require more formatting, such as slight increases in point size, restoring space below and adding more space above, using paragraph rules (better than underlining, which should be avoided), or any or all or the above. "Jackie D" wrote: Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the best practice (to use that horrible corporate word!) -- Many thanks JD "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm. FWIW, I don't agree with everything John writes there. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Anne Troy" wrote in message ... Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog). I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting himself. In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size, basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing, then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense? ******************* ~Anne Troy www.OfficeArticles.com "Jackie D" wrote in message ... Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Many thanks Jackie D |
#18
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
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line & paragraph spacing in Word
The values are additive.
-- Hope this helps. Please reply to the newsgroup unless you wish to avail yourself of my services on a paid consulting basis. Doug Robbins - Word MVP "LAC" wrote in message ... Susan, Can you clarify something for me? When using Space before and Space after, if you have a paragraph style that has 6 after, and a heading with 6 before, with the spacing between the paragraph and the header be 6 pt or does it add the "before" and "after" together to give a total space of 12? I'm trying to set up a style sheet for some standard documents and Word seems inconsistent in how it handles the space before and after. -- LAC "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: I'll agree with most of that. The most important point (often disregarded in legal documents and similar dogs' breakfasts) is that a heading *must* have more Space Before than Space After. Even if you add 3 pts Space After (as Word's heading styles do by default), you need to have 12, 18, 24 pts Space Before (the more leading you have in the body copy, the more space you need before the headings). I tend to type two very different types of copy (aside from letters, flyers, and other odds and ends). One type of document I produce is a consulting report (such as an appraisal or appraisal review), which is printed on Letter-size paper. This usually uses a Body Text style that is close to the Word default: 12 pt TNR with default (Single) line spacing, justified, no first-line indent, and 6 pts Space After. The other type of document is a printed book, usually a trade paperback at 6" x 9". For these I usually use smaller type, first-line indent, and no space between paragraphs, but often the leading is increased to make the book more readable (or more apparently substantial). -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "leftnotracks" wrote in message ... I'm a professional typographer (which means I hardly ever use Word). So I'll offer my $.02. If I contradict Mr. McGhie, then to heck with it. Body copy should be at least 10 pt. type, and no larger than 12 pt, unless set for people with particularly poor eyesight. Leading (AKA linespacing) should be at least 20% above type size, and probably a bit more. So 11 pt. body copy should be set on 13.5 or 14 pt leading. If you are using paragraph indents, then you should have no extra space between paragraphs. If you prefer to have space between paragraphs, then do not use paragraph indents. Space between paragraphs should be in 1/2 line increments. Our 11/14 body copy would have paragraph spacing of 7 or 14 pt. I prefer to use the Space After rather than Space Before for this. Why will be clear later. Paragraph indents should be in type size increments. Our 11 pt. body copy should have indents of 22, 33, or 44 pts. Use larger indents for wider columns. Subheads should have significant contract from body copy. If using a serif font (Garamond, Times, Georgia) for body copy, use a bold sans-serif font for subheads (Franklin Gothic, Trebuchet, Gill Sans). Set the subhead no more than 1 point larger than body copy. Give the subhead extra space above and no space below. This will keep the subhead tight to the copy it follows and create a double space above it, cueing the reader to a change in subject. You may want several levels of subhead., The one I just stated would be the lowest. Higher levels require more formatting, such as slight increases in point size, restoring space below and adding more space above, using paragraph rules (better than underlining, which should be avoided), or any or all or the above. "Jackie D" wrote: Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the best practice (to use that horrible corporate word!) -- Many thanks JD "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm. FWIW, I don't agree with everything John writes there. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Anne Troy" wrote in message ... Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog). I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting himself. In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size, basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing, then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense? ******************* ~Anne Troy www.OfficeArticles.com "Jackie D" wrote in message ... Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Many thanks Jackie D |
#19
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
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line & paragraph spacing in Word
It depends on a Compatibility Options settings. If you are using the default
settings in Word 2000 (I think) and above, the option "Don't use HTML paragraph auto spacing" is NOT checked, and Word will use the greater of the two settings. If you do check it, then the values are, as Doug says, added together. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "LAC" wrote in message ... Susan, Can you clarify something for me? When using Space before and Space after, if you have a paragraph style that has 6 after, and a heading with 6 before, with the spacing between the paragraph and the header be 6 pt or does it add the "before" and "after" together to give a total space of 12? I'm trying to set up a style sheet for some standard documents and Word seems inconsistent in how it handles the space before and after. -- LAC "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: I'll agree with most of that. The most important point (often disregarded in legal documents and similar dogs' breakfasts) is that a heading *must* have more Space Before than Space After. Even if you add 3 pts Space After (as Word's heading styles do by default), you need to have 12, 18, 24 pts Space Before (the more leading you have in the body copy, the more space you need before the headings). I tend to type two very different types of copy (aside from letters, flyers, and other odds and ends). One type of document I produce is a consulting report (such as an appraisal or appraisal review), which is printed on Letter-size paper. This usually uses a Body Text style that is close to the Word default: 12 pt TNR with default (Single) line spacing, justified, no first-line indent, and 6 pts Space After. The other type of document is a printed book, usually a trade paperback at 6" x 9". For these I usually use smaller type, first-line indent, and no space between paragraphs, but often the leading is increased to make the book more readable (or more apparently substantial). -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "leftnotracks" wrote in message ... I'm a professional typographer (which means I hardly ever use Word). So I'll offer my $.02. If I contradict Mr. McGhie, then to heck with it. Body copy should be at least 10 pt. type, and no larger than 12 pt, unless set for people with particularly poor eyesight. Leading (AKA linespacing) should be at least 20% above type size, and probably a bit more. So 11 pt. body copy should be set on 13.5 or 14 pt leading. If you are using paragraph indents, then you should have no extra space between paragraphs. If you prefer to have space between paragraphs, then do not use paragraph indents. Space between paragraphs should be in 1/2 line increments. Our 11/14 body copy would have paragraph spacing of 7 or 14 pt. I prefer to use the Space After rather than Space Before for this. Why will be clear later. Paragraph indents should be in type size increments. Our 11 pt. body copy should have indents of 22, 33, or 44 pts. Use larger indents for wider columns. Subheads should have significant contract from body copy. If using a serif font (Garamond, Times, Georgia) for body copy, use a bold sans-serif font for subheads (Franklin Gothic, Trebuchet, Gill Sans). Set the subhead no more than 1 point larger than body copy. Give the subhead extra space above and no space below. This will keep the subhead tight to the copy it follows and create a double space above it, cueing the reader to a change in subject. You may want several levels of subhead., The one I just stated would be the lowest. Higher levels require more formatting, such as slight increases in point size, restoring space below and adding more space above, using paragraph rules (better than underlining, which should be avoided), or any or all or the above. "Jackie D" wrote: Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the best practice (to use that horrible corporate word!) -- Many thanks JD "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote: See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm. FWIW, I don't agree with everything John writes there. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit. "Anne Troy" wrote in message ... Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog). I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting himself. In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size, basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing, then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense? ******************* ~Anne Troy www.OfficeArticles.com "Jackie D" wrote in message ... Hi My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting Styles, so please bear with me! I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph. I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text. John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph) or is it referring to the space between the lines? John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point size of the text? I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply! -- Many thanks Jackie D |
#20
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
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line & paragraph spacing in Word
"Daiya Mitchell" wrote: Sounds like you need to unlink sections 1 and 2, they are linked by default. See "what happens when you have more than one section" on this page: http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm Also, "different first page" only applies *within* a section. Also, in Page Setup be sure to pay attention to the "apply to" menu. See also: Also, re your previous question to John--he just dropped in because someone alerted him to the thread, and may have now gone away again. I don't think there is a link to the updated article--I think what John meant is that with lots of edits and updates, errors got overlooked. On 7/26/05 9:10 AM, "Jackie D" wrote: Hi John I wonder if I can ask you another question about templates again? I am trying to separate out the front page from the body of a document. I clicked in the first page (ie the front matter page) and in page set up I selected Section Start at Odd Page and also Different first page. Page 2 (ie the first page of the body of the document) also says Section start at odd page and I haven't ticked Different first page. And yet, the front page doesn't appear to be divroced from the next page because the formatting and styles I put in the front matter page are also in the next page. So it seems, I haven't actually created a different first page. Do you where I'm going wrong? -- Daiya Mitchell, MVP Mac/Word Word FAQ: http://www.word.mvps.org/ MacWord Tips: http://www.word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/ What's an MVP? A volunteer! Read the FAQ: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/ Hello I have a problem I am new to Word and I need to know 3 things ( how to do them ) 1. Change the line spacing of a list. 2. Change the line spacing of a paragraph of text. 3. Change the paragraph spacing between body text and a heading. Thank You. |
#21
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
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line & paragraph spacing in Word
Paragraph spacing is set in the Paragraph dialog. Preferably you should
change the spacing for the related style (see http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/styl...fyAStyle.html). Note, however, that not only have you tagged onto a very old and entirely unrelated thread, but your phrasing suggests that these are homework questions, which you should probably figure out the answer to by yourself. -- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA http://word.mvps.org "Big AL" wrote in message ... "Daiya Mitchell" wrote: Sounds like you need to unlink sections 1 and 2, they are linked by default. See "what happens when you have more than one section" on this page: http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm Also, "different first page" only applies *within* a section. Also, in Page Setup be sure to pay attention to the "apply to" menu. See also: Also, re your previous question to John--he just dropped in because someone alerted him to the thread, and may have now gone away again. I don't think there is a link to the updated article--I think what John meant is that with lots of edits and updates, errors got overlooked. On 7/26/05 9:10 AM, "Jackie D" wrote: Hi John I wonder if I can ask you another question about templates again? I am trying to separate out the front page from the body of a document. I clicked in the first page (ie the front matter page) and in page set up I selected Section Start at Odd Page and also Different first page. Page 2 (ie the first page of the body of the document) also says Section start at odd page and I haven't ticked Different first page. And yet, the front page doesn't appear to be divroced from the next page because the formatting and styles I put in the front matter page are also in the next page. So it seems, I haven't actually created a different first page. Do you where I'm going wrong? -- Daiya Mitchell, MVP Mac/Word Word FAQ: http://www.word.mvps.org/ MacWord Tips: http://www.word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/ What's an MVP? A volunteer! Read the FAQ: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/ Hello I have a problem I am new to Word and I need to know 3 things ( how to do them ) 1. Change the line spacing of a list. 2. Change the line spacing of a paragraph of text. 3. Change the paragraph spacing between body text and a heading. Thank You. |
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