[Jack]

Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?

[grammatim[_2_]]

You mean, a Citation from the List of Sources in Word2007?

No.

On May 26, 12:44*pm, jack wrote:
Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?

[Yves Dhondt]

If you are talking about the Citations and Bibliography feature in Word, the
answer is yes but it is not always all that straightforward or easy.

In Word 2008 for Mac, footnote citations are supported out of the box. Just
add a normal footnote and then insert the citation where you would insert
the footnote text.

In Word 2007 for Windows, footnote citations are not supported out of the
box. But as the feature is extendable, you could add your own style if you
have some basic XSLT knowledge. The following articles might help you:
http://blogs.msdn.com/microsoft_offi...ions-1011.aspx
http://blogs.msdn.com/microsoft_offi...om-styles.aspx

Also, a beta version of an attempt at the CMS footnote style I wrote can be
found through http://bibword.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?title=Styles

Yves
--
http://bibword.codeplex.com

"jack" wrote in message
...
Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?

[grammatim[_2_]]

No. He wants to put what Word thinks of as a Bibliography entry into a
footnote, not what Word thinks of as a Citation.

How many times, Yves, have I suggested that you learn what the Chicago
Manual of Style has to say about references in scholarly articles, so
you can seee how abysmally badly Word handles Chicago style
documentation -- and by extension, the others as well?

On May 26, 2:00*pm, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:
If you are talking about the Citations and Bibliography feature in Word, the
answer is yes but it is not always all that straightforward or easy.

In Word 2008 for Mac, footnote citations are supported out of the box. Just
add a normal footnote and then insert the citation where you would insert
the footnote text.

In Word 2007 for Windows, footnote citations are not supported out of the
box. But as the feature is extendable, you could add your own style if you
have some basic XSLT knowledge. The following articles might help you:http://blogs.msdn.com/microsoft_offi...9/04/29/biblio...

Also, a beta version of an attempt at the CMS footnote style I wrote can be
found throughhttp://bibword.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?title=Styles

Yves
--http://bibword.codeplex.com

"jack" wrote in message

...



Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?-

[gopher87]

jack wrote:
Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?

I solved the problem by installing the Zotero plugin in Firefox and then
by installing the Zotero add-in into Word 2007.

You create the citation pretty easily in Zotero and then when you need
to insert the citation you add a footnote and then with a couple of
clicks you paste the bibliografic citation from the Zotero add-in.

It would be nice if Word 2007 had a citation/quotation feature out of
the box similar to Zotero though...

[Yves Dhondt]

Sigh. Reread my original reply carefully.

1)I stated that Word 2008 for Mac supports footnote citations (as used by
humanities) out of the box.

For example, the book "Angels & Demons" by Dan Brown is cited in a footnote
by Word 2008 as follows (title in italics):
Dan Brown, Angels & Demons (New York, NY: Bantam Press, 2005)

2)I stated that Word 2007 for Windows does not support footnote citations
out of the box but that if the OP has minimal XSLT knowledge, he could
either try to create the style himself (given the links I posted), or give
the style I made (which is still in beta) a shot.

That style cites the same book also as (again with title in italics):
Dan Brown, Angels & Demons (New York, NY: Bantam Press, 2005)

Yves
--
http://bibword.codeplex.com

"grammatim" wrote in message
...
No. He wants to put what Word thinks of as a Bibliography entry into a
footnote, not what Word thinks of as a Citation.

How many times, Yves, have I suggested that you learn what the Chicago
Manual of Style has to say about references in scholarly articles, so
you can seee how abysmally badly Word handles Chicago style
documentation -- and by extension, the others as well?

On May 26, 2:00 pm, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:
If you are talking about the Citations and Bibliography feature in Word,
the
answer is yes but it is not always all that straightforward or easy.

In Word 2008 for Mac, footnote citations are supported out of the box.
Just
add a normal footnote and then insert the citation where you would insert
the footnote text.

In Word 2007 for Windows, footnote citations are not supported out of the
box. But as the feature is extendable, you could add your own style if you
have some basic XSLT knowledge. The following articles might help
you:http://blogs.msdn.com/microsoft_offi...9/04/29/biblio...

Also, a beta version of an attempt at the CMS footnote style I wrote can
be
found throughhttp://bibword.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?title=Styles

Yves
--http://bibword.codeplex.com

"jack" wrote in message

...



Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?-

[grammatim[_2_]]

(a) Most of us here do not use Macs.

(b) Very, very few people have "minimal," or _any_, XSLT knowledge.

(c) I looked again at the page you linked, and it still says it hasn't
been updated since Decemter and that it doesn't handle certain
essential properties of CMS reference style.

(d) When I first started using the Bibliography tool, I posted here a
list of ten ways in which the "Chicago" style does not conform to
Chicago style.

(e) Not many scholarly references are as simple as your reference to a
novel, but even it would have at least two errors in "Chicago"
Bibliography style. (1) In author-date style (which is the only one
allowed by "Chicago" style), the references are ordered by author and
then by date, not by author and then by title. (This is sensible,
since the reader is referred to a work by its author and its date, not
by its title. Word's insistence on inserting a title into a citation
is ABSOLUTELY NEVER correct in Chicago style.) (2) The state (NY) bzw.
country name is not used after the city name New York; similarly for
all well-known publishing centers, including Boston, London,
Wiesbaden, Leiden, Paris, etc.

On May 26, 4:33*pm, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:
Sigh. Reread my original reply carefully.

1)I stated that Word 2008 for Mac supports footnote citations (as used by
humanities) out of the box.

For example, the book "Angels & Demons" by Dan Brown is cited in a footnote
by Word 2008 as follows (title in italics):
* * Dan Brown, Angels & Demons (New York, NY: Bantam Press, 2005)

2)I stated that Word 2007 for Windows does not support footnote citations
out of the box but that if the OP has minimal XSLT knowledge, he could
either try to create the style himself (given the links I posted), or give
the style I made (which is still in beta) a shot.

That style cites the same book also as (again with title in italics):
* Dan Brown, Angels & Demons (New York, NY: Bantam Press, 2005)

Yves
--http://bibword.codeplex.com

"grammatim" wrote in message

...
No. He wants to put what Word thinks of as a Bibliography entry into a
footnote, not what Word thinks of as a Citation.

How many times, Yves, have I suggested that you learn what the Chicago
Manual of Style has to say about references in scholarly articles, so
you can seee how abysmally badly Word handles Chicago style
documentation -- and by extension, the others as well?

On May 26, 2:00 pm, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:



If you are talking about the Citations and Bibliography feature in Word,
the
answer is yes but it is not always all that straightforward or easy.

In Word 2008 for Mac, footnote citations are supported out of the box.
Just
add a normal footnote and then insert the citation where you would insert
the footnote text.

In Word 2007 for Windows, footnote citations are not supported out of the
box. But as the feature is extendable, you could add your own style if you
have some basic XSLT knowledge. The following articles might help
you:http://blogs.msdn.com/microsoft_offi...7/12/14/biblio......

Also, a beta version of an attempt at the CMS footnote style I wrote can
be
found throughhttp://bibword.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?title=Styles

Yves
--http://bibword.codeplex.com

"jack" wrote in message

...

Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?--

[grammatim[_2_]]

On May 26, 4:16*pm, gopher87 wrote:
jack wrote:
Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?

I solved the problem by installing the Zotero plugin in Firefox and then
by installing the Zotero add-in into Word 2007.

You create the citation pretty easily in Zotero and then when you need
to insert the citation you add a footnote and then with a couple of
clicks you paste the bibliografic citation from the Zotero add-in.

It would be nice if Word 2007 had a citation/quotation feature out of
the box similar to Zotero though...

It was certainly what I expected from the advertising!

[Yves Dhondt]

"grammatim" wrote in message
...
(a) Most of us here do not use Macs.


The OP didn't say he did or did not. I just pointed out that Word 2008
supports it out of the box.

Considering that styles between 2007 and 2008 are interchangable (there are
one or two caveats), the OP could even ask the stylesheets from someone who
has 2008 and use them in 2007 to fit his needs.

(b) Very, very few people have "minimal," or _any_, XSLT knowledge.


And maybe the OP has. Who knows? And even if he doesn't, he might have a
friend who does and wants to help him. Again, I just pointed out the option
and provided some starting place to search for information.

The fact that you aren't capable of manipulating the stylesheets and are
frustrated by that fact doesn't mean there aren't enough people out there
who can.

(c) I looked again at the page you linked, and it still says it hasn't
been updated since Decemter and that it doesn't handle certain
essential properties of CMS reference style.


Maybe it handles enough for what the OP needs. Maybe the OP isn't even
looking for CMS and wants some totally different style. Again, I just
pointed out this option.

(d) When I first started using the Bibliography tool, I posted here a
list of ten ways in which the "Chicago" style does not conform to
Chicago style.


I don't see what this has to do with the OPs question. He or she is asking
about a footnote style which is not in Word 2007 by default, you are talking
about an in-text citation style which is. Besides, who says that most, if
not all, of the issues you posted could be fixed easily? Getting help often
depends on the way you ask for it.

(e) Not many scholarly references are as simple as your reference to a
novel, but even it would have at least two errors in "Chicago"
Bibliography style. (1) In author-date style (which is the only one
allowed by "Chicago" style), the references are ordered by author and
then by date, not by author and then by title. (This is sensible,
since the reader is referred to a work by its author and its date, not
by its title. Word's insistence on inserting a title into a citation
is ABSOLUTELY NEVER correct in Chicago style.)

The OP was talking about a footnote style, not an author-date style.
According to http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/...16_sec003.html the
examples I posted were correct for a 'first note citation in a work without
full bibliography'.

(2) The state (NY) bzw.
country name is not used after the city name New York; similarly for
all well-known publishing centers, including Boston, London,
Wiesbaden, Leiden, Paris, etc.

If you think that a specific city would be so well-known that it doesn't
need a state, you wouldn't enter the state in the input dialogs in the first
place. As Word only displays the information it has, if you haven't entered
the state, Word wouldn't display it.

But there is a London in Arkansas, California, Indiana, Kentucky, ... Just
like there is a Paris in Arkansas, Idaho, Illinois, Kentucky, ... And there
are a couple of New Yorks in the UK as well as a Boston (I guess the
original settlers didn't have much of an imagination). In case of possible
disambiguity, it is always better to provide the extra information.


On May 26, 4:33 pm, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:
Sigh. Reread my original reply carefully.

1)I stated that Word 2008 for Mac supports footnote citations (as used by
humanities) out of the box.

For example, the book "Angels & Demons" by Dan Brown is cited in a
footnote
by Word 2008 as follows (title in italics):
Dan Brown, Angels & Demons (New York, NY: Bantam Press, 2005)

2)I stated that Word 2007 for Windows does not support footnote citations
out of the box but that if the OP has minimal XSLT knowledge, he could
either try to create the style himself (given the links I posted), or give
the style I made (which is still in beta) a shot.

That style cites the same book also as (again with title in italics):
Dan Brown, Angels & Demons (New York, NY: Bantam Press, 2005)

Yves
--http://bibword.codeplex.com

"grammatim" wrote in message

...
No. He wants to put what Word thinks of as a Bibliography entry into a
footnote, not what Word thinks of as a Citation.

How many times, Yves, have I suggested that you learn what the Chicago
Manual of Style has to say about references in scholarly articles, so
you can seee how abysmally badly Word handles Chicago style
documentation -- and by extension, the others as well?

On May 26, 2:00 pm, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:



If you are talking about the Citations and Bibliography feature in Word,
the
answer is yes but it is not always all that straightforward or easy.

In Word 2008 for Mac, footnote citations are supported out of the box.
Just
add a normal footnote and then insert the citation where you would
insert
the footnote text.

In Word 2007 for Windows, footnote citations are not supported out of
the
box. But as the feature is extendable, you could add your own style if
you
have some basic XSLT knowledge. The following articles might help
you:http://blogs.msdn.com/microsoft_offi...7/12/14/biblio......

Also, a beta version of an attempt at the CMS footnote style I wrote can
be
found throughhttp://bibword.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?title=Styles

Yves
--http://bibword.codeplex.com

"jack" wrote in message

...

Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?--

[Yves Dhondt]

"grammatim" wrote in message
news:a450d3fa-0742-41b3-8424-
...
On May 26, 4:16 pm, gopher87 wrote:
jack wrote:
Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?

I solved the problem by installing the Zotero plugin in Firefox and then
by installing the Zotero add-in into Word 2007.

You create the citation pretty easily in Zotero and then when you need
to insert the citation you add a footnote and then with a couple of
clicks you paste the bibliografic citation from the Zotero add-in.

It would be nice if Word 2007 had a citation/quotation feature out of
the box similar to Zotero though...

It was certainly what I expected from the advertising!

Zotero is a perfectly fine tool for storing bibliographies.

Personally, I don't use it because I believe CSL, the language used for the
creation of their stylesheets, is limited and unflexible. That said, I can
see it fulfill the needs that most people have for such a tool.

So yes, Zotero could be an answer to the OP's question.

Yves

[grammatim[_2_]]

On May 27, 10:20*am, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:
"grammatim" wrote in message

...

(a) Most of us here do not use Macs.

The OP didn't say he did or did not. I just pointed out that Word 2008
supports it out of the box.

Here and below, I am, obviously, not addressing the specific question
of the OP, but the general issues of Word's lousy bibliography tool --
which you inexplicably defend as though you personally were
responsible for all its flaws.

Considering that styles between 2007 and 2008 are interchangable (there are
one or two caveats), the OP could even ask the stylesheets from someone who
has 2008 and use them in 2007 to fit his needs.

That sounds an awful lot like violation of the EULA.

(b) Very, very few people have "minimal," or _any_, XSLT knowledge.

And maybe the OP has. Who knows? And even if he doesn't, he might have a
friend who does and wants to help him. Again, I just pointed out the option
and provided some starting place to search for information.

That's a very big "maybe." "Maybe" if he did, he wouldn't have had to
ask his question here.

The fact that you aren't capable of manipulating the stylesheets and are
frustrated by that fact doesn't mean there aren't enough people out there
who can.

It would be interesting to learn how many such people there are. And,
especially, how large the intersection of that group of people with
the group of people that need to use scholarly documentation tools is.

(c) I looked again at the page you linked, and it still says it hasn't
been updated since Decemter and that it doesn't handle certain
essential properties of CMS reference style.

Maybe it handles enough for what the OP needs. Maybe the OP isn't even
looking for CMS and wants some totally different style. Again, I just
pointed out this option.

"Maybe" it doesn't. Scholars using Chicago style do not usually have
references comprising nothing but the first mention in a footnote with
no bibliography.

(d) When I first started using the Bibliography tool, I posted here a
list of ten ways in which the "Chicago" style does not conform to
Chicago style.

I don't see what this has to do with the OPs question. He or she is asking
about a footnote style which is not in Word 2007 by default, you are talking
about an in-text citation style which is. Besides, who says that most, if
not all, of the issues you posted could be fixed easily? Getting help often
depends on the way you ask for it.

The flaws in "Chicago" style are systemic. There isn't even a blank in
the form for entering the Series of the work -- in _any_ of the ten
styles provided.

(e) Not many scholarly references are as simple as your reference to a
novel, but even it would have at least two errors in "Chicago"
Bibliography style. (1) In author-date style (which is the only one
allowed by "Chicago" style), the references are ordered by author and
then by date, not by author and then by title. (This is sensible,
since the reader is referred to a work by its author and its date, not
by its title. Word's insistence on inserting a title into a citation
is ABSOLUTELY NEVER correct in Chicago style.)

The OP was talking about a footnote style, not an author-date style.
According tohttp://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/ch16/ch16_sec003.htmlthe
examples I posted were correct for a 'first note citation in a work without
full bibliography'.

Rare is the article or monograph that is limited to just such an item.

(2) The state (NY) bzw.
country name is not used after the city name New York; similarly for
all well-known publishing centers, including Boston, London,
Wiesbaden, Leiden, Paris, etc.

If you think that a specific city would be so well-known that it doesn't
need a state, you wouldn't enter the state in the input dialogs in the first
place. As Word only displays the information it has, if you haven't entered
the state, Word wouldn't display it.

But there is a London in Arkansas, California, Indiana, Kentucky, ... Just
like there is a Paris in Arkansas, Idaho, Illinois, Kentucky, ... And there
are a couple of New Yorks in the UK as well as a Boston (I guess the
original settlers didn't have much of an imagination). In case of possible
disambiguity, it is always better to provide the extra information.

And if there is a publisher in London, Ontario, then the bibliography
entry lists the Place of Publication as "London, Ont." The Place of
Publication lists the Place of Publication, not a differentiation of
that place from all other places with a similar name. You don't even
use "Eng." (or "UK") or "Mass." for "Cambridge" with "Cambridge
University Press," :"Harvard University Press," or "MIT Press."

On May 26, 4:33 pm, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:



Sigh. Reread my original reply carefully.

1)I stated that Word 2008 for Mac supports footnote citations (as used by
humanities) out of the box.

For example, the book "Angels & Demons" by Dan Brown is cited in a
footnote
by Word 2008 as follows (title in italics):
Dan Brown, Angels & Demons (New York, NY: Bantam Press, 2005)

2)I stated that Word 2007 for Windows does not support footnote citations
out of the box but that if the OP has minimal XSLT knowledge, he could
either try to create the style himself (given the links I posted), or give
the style I made (which is still in beta) a shot.

That style cites the same book also as (again with title in italics):
Dan Brown, Angels & Demons (New York, NY: Bantam Press, 2005)

Yves
--http://bibword.codeplex.com

"grammatim" wrote in message

....
No. He wants to put what Word thinks of as a Bibliography entry into a
footnote, not what Word thinks of as a Citation.

How many times, Yves, have I suggested that you learn what the Chicago
Manual of Style has to say about references in scholarly articles, so
you can seee how abysmally badly Word handles Chicago style
documentation -- and by extension, the others as well?

On May 26, 2:00 pm, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:

If you are talking about the Citations and Bibliography feature in Word,
the
answer is yes but it is not always all that straightforward or easy.

In Word 2008 for Mac, footnote citations are supported out of the box..
Just
add a normal footnote and then insert the citation where you would
insert
the footnote text.

In Word 2007 for Windows, footnote citations are not supported out of
the
box. But as the feature is extendable, you could add your own style if
you
have some basic XSLT knowledge. The following articles might help
you:http://blogs.msdn.com/microsoft_offi...7/12/14/biblio......

Also, a beta version of an attempt at the CMS footnote style I wrote can
be
found throughhttp://bibword.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?title=Styles

Yves
--http://bibword.codeplex.com

"jack" wrote in message

...

Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

[grammatim[_2_]]

On May 27, 10:30*am, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:
"grammatim" wrote in message
news:a450d3fa-0742-41b3-8424-
...
On May 26, 4:16 pm, gopher87 wrote:
jack wrote:
Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?

I solved the problem by installing the Zotero plugin in Firefox and then
by installing the Zotero add-in into Word 2007.

You create the citation pretty easily in Zotero and then when you need
to insert the citation you add a footnote and then with a couple of
clicks you paste the bibliografic citation from the Zotero add-in.

It would be nice if Word 2007 had a citation/quotation feature out of
the box similar to Zotero though...

It was certainly what I expected from the advertising!

Zotero is a perfectly fine tool for storing bibliographies.

Personally, I don't use it because I believe CSL, the language used for the
creation of their stylesheets, is limited and unflexible. That said, I can
see it fulfill the needs that most people have for such a tool.

So yes, Zotero could be an answer to the OP's question.

For the OP, yes, who already uses it.

For the many people coming to this newsgroup for help, I see by its
website that it is only a Firefox extension, and that it appears to be
a device for gathering date from the internet rather than a
bibliography tool along the lines of EndNote or the late, beloved
Papyrus (which was an incredibly sophisticated Mac-only bibliography
tool that did not migrate to OS X).

[Jack]

"jack" wrote:

Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?

Thanks to everyone who replied. A fascinating exchange!. I tried Zotero in
the past and did not, for reasons I do not remember, find it suitable. One of
you was correct in saying that what I was looking for was a way to include a
bib entry as a note. It is possible by way of crossreferencing the footnote
to a bookmarked bib entry; but then it is erased when the bib is updated. My
current solution is to convert the bib to static text, bookmark the "bib"
entry then crossreference it in the footnote. Awkward because now I must use
the static text as my bib and thereby have lost the auto formating, i.ie
italics etc.

Thanks for your help. Perhaps I will give zotero another shot.

[grammatim[_2_]]

On May 27, 11:52*am, jack wrote:
"jack" wrote:
Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?

Thanks to everyone who replied. A fascinating exchange!. *I tried Zotero in
the past and did not, for reasons I do not remember, find it suitable. One of
you was correct in saying that what I was looking for was a way to include a
bib entry as a note. It is possible by way of crossreferencing the footnote
to a bookmarked bib entry; but then it is erased when the bib is updated. My
current solution is to convert the bib to static text, bookmark the "bib"
entry then crossreference it in the footnote. Awkward because now I must use
the static text as my bib and thereby have lost the auto formating, i.ie
italics etc.

Thanks for your help. Perhaps I will give zotero another shot.

The way I've gotten around the multitudinous problems with "Chicago"
style is to let Word be Word until the article is absolutely finished.
I then set the style to "Chicago" so that the in-text citations are in
Chicago style (no comma between author and date), laboriously format
each one to remove the title ("Chicago" insists on inserting the title
of every work whose author appears more than once in the document),
and then convert all the citations to static text (using the macro
provided by, IIRC, Yves, since it can't be done with Find/Replace),
and then move the parentheses around (or delete them) so they fit the
syntax of the sentence the citation is in.

Then I change the style to "APA" in order to get the date after the
author in the bibliography. Then I convert the Bibliography to static
text (dropdown in the tab at the top of the bibliography itself), Sort
the entries (since even in "APA," Word thinks they should be
alphabetical by title), change duplicate author names to 3-em dashes,
unitalicize journal volume numbers and close up the commas to what
precedes (the APA can't _possibly_ want there to be a space before
each comma in a bibliography entry!), and IIRC also do something to
the "edited by" entry of Book Section items.

(Word's "Chicago" totally screws up Book Section entries.)

BTW for dissertations and theses, use the Reports style, with the
university name under Institution, and it comes out right.

[Yves[_2_]]

On 27 mei, 16:51, grammatim wrote:
On May 27, 10:20*am, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:

"grammatim" wrote in message

...

(a) Most of us here do not use Macs.

The OP didn't say he did or did not. I just pointed out that Word 2008
supports it out of the box.

Here and below, I am, obviously, not addressing the specific question
of the OP, but the general issues of Word's lousy bibliography tool --
which you inexplicably defend as though you personally were
responsible for all its flaws.

Considering that styles between 2007 and 2008 are interchangable (there are
one or two caveats), the OP could even ask the stylesheets from someone who
has 2008 and use them in 2007 to fit his needs.

That sounds an awful lot like violation of the EULA.


Could be. But Microsoft employees suggest that you start from their
styles to create your own one rather than starting from scratch
(something I personally don't agree with due to their complexity). So
copying the style and adapting one or two things (the caveats I
mentioned) would be an allowed step. I agree that it is probably a
grey area.

(b) Very, very few people have "minimal," or _any_, XSLT knowledge.

And maybe the OP has. Who knows? And even if he doesn't, he might have a
friend who does and wants to help him. Again, I just pointed out the option
and provided some starting place to search for information.

That's a very big "maybe." "Maybe" if he did, he wouldn't have had to
ask his question here.

The fact that you aren't capable of manipulating the stylesheets and are
frustrated by that fact doesn't mean there aren't enough people out there
who can.

It would be interesting to learn how many such people there are. And,
especially, how large the intersection of that group of people with
the group of people that need to use scholarly documentation tools is.


XML, and its manipulation through XSLT, is pretty basic stuff for
anyone following some kind of non-amateur computer class nowadays. And
every computer engineering/science student probably has to do at least
one report, so that would lead to a decent amount of people capable of
creating a style. Of course, the focus field of the types of
stylesheets from that angle could be limited.

There is the open source community which contains people who create
stuff because they can, not because they need it. I needed a style for
IEEE so I wrote one. The other styles I don't need or use, I just
write them for fun.

Then there are the 'librarians with a technological background'. The
same people who made their databases available through Z39.50 probably
have the knowledge on board to write the styles.

I'm pretty sure in totall there are a couple of 100000 people out
there who have the necessary knowledge. Of course that doesn't mean
they would want to work on the topic. Especially if Microsoft did
every possible thing to make it hard for them to start.

(c) I looked again at the page you linked, and it still says it hasn't
been updated since Decemter and that it doesn't handle certain
essential properties of CMS reference style.

Maybe it handles enough for what the OP needs. Maybe the OP isn't even
looking for CMS and wants some totally different style. Again, I just
pointed out this option.

"Maybe" it doesn't. Scholars using Chicago style do not usually have
references comprising nothing but the first mention in a footnote with
no bibliography.

(d) When I first started using the Bibliography tool, I posted here a
list of ten ways in which the "Chicago" style does not conform to
Chicago style.

I don't see what this has to do with the OPs question. He or she is asking
about a footnote style which is not in Word 2007 by default, you are talking
about an in-text citation style which is. Besides, who says that most, if
not all, of the issues you posted could be fixed easily? Getting help often
depends on the way you ask for it.

The flaws in "Chicago" style are systemic. There isn't even a blank in
the form for entering the Series of the work -- in _any_ of the ten
styles provided.


And that is exactly why I love this tool and advocate for it. It's the
first time that I see Microsoft come with such an open, generic and
extremely flexible framework. Finally users (albeit requiring certain
skills) can fix the errors themselves and extend the functionality.

So yes, Microsoft made an error by not including the series title. But
you can add an entry to the user interface with only 5 lines of code
(and that's if you outline them nicely because you can just as well
put everything on one line). Of course, adding the field to the form
is one thing, you will still need XSLT knowledge to actually
manipulate and display the series title through your stylesheet.

(e) Not many scholarly references are as simple as your reference to a
novel, but even it would have at least two errors in "Chicago"
Bibliography style. (1) In author-date style (which is the only one
allowed by "Chicago" style), the references are ordered by author and
then by date, not by author and then by title. (This is sensible,
since the reader is referred to a work by its author and its date, not
by its title. Word's insistence on inserting a title into a citation
is ABSOLUTELY NEVER correct in Chicago style.)

The OP was talking about a footnote style, not an author-date style.
According tohttp://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/ch16/ch16_sec003.htmlthe
examples I posted were correct for a 'first note citation in a work without
full bibliography'.

Rare is the article or monograph that is limited to just such an item.

(2) The state (NY) bzw.
country name is not used after the city name New York; similarly for
all well-known publishing centers, including Boston, London,
Wiesbaden, Leiden, Paris, etc.

If you think that a specific city would be so well-known that it doesn't
need a state, you wouldn't enter the state in the input dialogs in the first
place. As Word only displays the information it has, if you haven't entered
the state, Word wouldn't display it.

But there is a London in Arkansas, California, Indiana, Kentucky, ... Just
like there is a Paris in Arkansas, Idaho, Illinois, Kentucky, ... And there
are a couple of New Yorks in the UK as well as a Boston (I guess the
original settlers didn't have much of an imagination). In case of possible
disambiguity, it is always better to provide the extra information.

And if there is a publisher in London, Ontario, then the bibliography
entry lists the Place of Publication as "London, Ont." *The Place of
Publication lists the Place of Publication, not a differentiation of
that place from all other places with a similar name. You don't even
use "Eng." (or "UK") or "Mass." for "Cambridge" with "Cambridge
University Press," :"Harvard University Press," or "MIT Press."


Like I said, if you wouldn't specify the information when entering it
because you assume it is well-known, Word wouldn't (be able to) show
it.

From an algorithmic point of view, if you don't tell the algorithm
what is well-known and what isn't, it can't figure it out. And what is
well-known and what isn't is highly subjective. I'm pretty sure that
if you ask someone in the neighbourhood of London, Ontario where the
London is located you described in your reference, he would think it's
'his London', before thinking of the one in the UK.



On May 26, 4:33 pm, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:

Sigh. Reread my original reply carefully.

1)I stated that Word 2008 for Mac supports footnote citations (as used by
humanities) out of the box.

For example, the book "Angels & Demons" by Dan Brown is cited in a
footnote
by Word 2008 as follows (title in italics):
Dan Brown, Angels & Demons (New York, NY: Bantam Press, 2005)

2)I stated that Word 2007 for Windows does not support footnote citations
out of the box but that if the OP has minimal XSLT knowledge, he could
either try to create the style himself (given the links I posted), or give
the style I made (which is still in beta) a shot.

That style cites the same book also as (again with title in italics):
Dan Brown, Angels & Demons (New York, NY: Bantam Press, 2005)

Yves
--http://bibword.codeplex.com

"grammatim" wrote in message

....
No. He wants to put what Word thinks of as a Bibliography entry into a
footnote, not what Word thinks of as a Citation.

How many times, Yves, have I suggested that you learn what the Chicago
Manual of Style has to say about references in scholarly articles, so
you can seee how abysmally badly Word handles Chicago style
documentation -- and by extension, the others as well?

On May 26, 2:00 pm, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:

If you are talking about the Citations and Bibliography feature in Word,
the
answer is yes but it is not always all that straightforward or easy..

In Word 2008 for Mac, footnote citations are supported out of the box.
Just
add a normal footnote and then insert the citation where you would
insert
the footnote text.

In Word 2007 for Windows, footnote citations are not supported out of
the
box. But as the feature is extendable, you could add your own style if
you
have some basic XSLT knowledge. The following articles might help
you:http://blogs.msdn.com/microsoft_offi...7/12/14/biblio......

Also, a beta version of an attempt at the CMS footnote style I wrote can
be
found throughhttp://bibword.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?title=Styles

Yves
--http://bibword.codeplex.com

"jack" wrote in message

...

Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -

- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -

[Yves[_2_]]

On 27 mei, 16:55, grammatim wrote:
On May 27, 10:30*am, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:





"grammatim" wrote in message
news:a450d3fa-0742-41b3-8424-
...
On May 26, 4:16 pm, gopher87 wrote:
jack wrote:
Is there a way to use a bibliography entry as a footnote?

I solved the problem by installing the Zotero plugin in Firefox and then
by installing the Zotero add-in into Word 2007.

You create the citation pretty easily in Zotero and then when you need
to insert the citation you add a footnote and then with a couple of
clicks you paste the bibliografic citation from the Zotero add-in.

It would be nice if Word 2007 had a citation/quotation feature out of
the box similar to Zotero though...

It was certainly what I expected from the advertising!

Zotero is a perfectly fine tool for storing bibliographies.

Personally, I don't use it because I believe CSL, the language used for the
creation of their stylesheets, is limited and unflexible. That said, I can
see it fulfill the needs that most people have for such a tool.

So yes, Zotero could be an answer to the OP's question.

For the OP, yes, who already uses it.

For the many people coming to this newsgroup for help, I see by its
website that it is only a Firefox extension, and that it appears to be
a device for gathering date from the internet rather than a
bibliography tool along the lines of EndNote or the late, beloved
Papyrus (which was an incredibly sophisticated Mac-only bibliography
tool that did not migrate to OS X).

You're mistaken. It is a tool like EndNote.

It does capture and store bibliography data (using a FireFox
extension). But that's just one side of it. Just like EndNote, it also
provides a Word addin and dozens of stylesheets to format the
bibliography data in your desired format. There full collection of
supported formats is available at http://www.zotero.org/styles

Like stated above, I personally don't like it, but it is a great tool
for most people.

Yves
--
http://bibword.codeplex.com

[grammatim[_2_]]

I accept all you say ... except for two points.

On May 27, 4:47*pm, Yves wrote:
On 27 mei, 16:51, grammatim wrote:

It would be interesting to learn how many such people there are. And,
especially, how large the intersection of that group of people with
the group of people that need to use scholarly documentation tools is.

XML, and its manipulation through XSLT, is pretty basic stuff for
anyone following some kind of non-amateur computer class nowadays. And
every computer engineering/science student probably has to do at least
one report, so that would lead to a decent amount of people capable of
creating a style. Of course, the focus field of the types of
stylesheets from that angle could be limited.

"anyone following some kind of non-amateur computer class nowadays"
describes a vanishingly small percentage of the people who would find
a properly constructed bibliography tool extremely useful.

There is the open source community which contains people who create
stuff because they can, not because they need it. I needed a style for
IEEE so I wrote one. The other styles I don't need or use, I just
write them for fun.

Then there are the 'librarians with a technological background'. The
same people who made their databases available through Z39.50 probably
have the knowledge on board to write the styles.

I'm pretty sure in totall there are a couple of 100000 people out
there who have the necessary knowledge. Of course that doesn't mean
they would want to work on the topic. Especially if Microsoft did
every possible thing to make it hard for them to start.

Exactly.

From an algorithmic point of view, if you don't tell the algorithm
what is well-known and what isn't, it can't figure it out. And what is
well-known and what isn't is highly subjective. I'm pretty sure that
if you ask someone in the neighbourhood of London, Ontario where the
London is located you described in your reference, he would think it's
'his London', before thinking of the one in the UK.

Even the most dyed-in-the-wool Canada chauvinist would not suppose
that a reference reading "London: Oxford University Press" referred to
London, Ontario.

There may well be a small press in that town, in which case it would
be identified as, say, "London, Ont.: Lake Erie Press."

[grammatim[_2_]]

On May 27, 4:53*pm, Yves wrote:
On 27 mei, 16:55, grammatim wrote:
On May 27, 10:30*am, "Yves Dhondt" wrote:

Zotero is a perfectly fine tool for storing bibliographies.

Personally, I don't use it because I believe CSL, the language used for the
creation of their stylesheets, is limited and unflexible. That said, I can
see it fulfill the needs that most people have for such a tool.

So yes, Zotero could be an answer to the OP's question.

For the OP, yes, who already uses it.

For the many people coming to this newsgroup for help, I see by its
website that it is only a Firefox extension, and that it appears to be
a device for gathering date from the internet rather than a
bibliography tool along the lines of EndNote or the late, beloved
Papyrus (which was an incredibly sophisticated Mac-only bibliography
tool that did not migrate to OS X).

You're mistaken. It is a tool like EndNote.

It does capture and store bibliography data (using a FireFox
extension). But that's just one side of it. Just like EndNote, it also
provides a Word addin and dozens of stylesheets to format the
bibliography data in your desired format. There full collection of
supported formats is available athttp://www.zotero.org/styles

Then it definitely needs a better website!

But alas, it requires Firefox.

Like stated above, I personally don't like it, but it is a great tool
for most people.

Yves
--http://bibword.codeplex.com-