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  #1   Report Post  
Jackie D
 
Posts: n/a
Default line & paragraph spacing in Word

Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!
--


Many thanks
Jackie D
  #2   Report Post  
Anne Troy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the
lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog).
I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting
himself.
In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size,
basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing,
then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you
should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense?
*******************
~Anne Troy

www.OfficeArticles.com


"Jackie D" wrote in message
...
Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I

have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a

paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or

is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!
--


Many thanks
Jackie D



  #3   Report Post  
Suzanne S. Barnhill
 
Posts: n/a
Default

See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm. FWIW,
I don't agree with everything John writes there.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Anne Troy" wrote in message
...
Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the
lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog).
I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting
himself.
In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size,
basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing,
then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you
should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense?
*******************
~Anne Troy

www.OfficeArticles.com


"Jackie D" wrote in message
...
Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused

about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I

have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua

12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a

paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above?

Or
is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm

being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the

point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!
--


Many thanks
Jackie D




  #4   Report Post  
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Jackie:

Sorry, that's a VERY old article, which has been updated several times. The
reference to "the space above each body text para" should read "the space
BELOW each body text para."

In the old days, I used to use space above. That's a technique known as
"leading" or, correctly, "extra lead" that comes from the printing industry
at the time of hot-metal Linotype presses. Industry practice when
electronic typesetting began was to place the "spacing" ABOVE.

Microsoft Word does not always behave correctly if you do that. After years
of trying to persuade Microsoft to get it right, we all gave up and moved
our spacing to BELOW the paragraph :-) I just forgot to update that bit of
the article.

So now, we tend to define 10 pts space BELOW on every style, and 0 space
above. For headings, we tend to define twice the font height ABOVE as well
as ten points below.

The problem is this: An electronic typesetter SHOULD suppress the extra
lead (space above) for every paragraph that lands at the top of a page.
Thus the top of the text lines up neatly on the top margin of the page.

Word instead uses a complicated formula to decide whether or not it will
suppress the space above. Half the time, it gets it wrong, which gives you
a "ragged" top margin. Since we can't guarantee that Word will always do
the right thing, we found it easier to switch and put our spacing below the
style.

On Headings, you need space above, since the amount of space you should use
is a multiple of the font height of the heading: in other words, it's
different for each level of heading. We normally recommend "twice" the font
height, so if Heading 1 is set in 22 point font, you would put 44 pts space
above on Heading 1. Heading 2 might be 18 point type, and get 36 points
above. Both would have ten points below.

So the formula for inter-paragraph spacing would become "three quarters of
the Body Text line height", instead of "three quarters of the line height."
Because the line height will vary with the font size of the largest
character on the line.

As to "how do you know what the line height is", well I think it says
somewhere in that article that it is "about" 120 per cent of the font
height. The actual measurement is set by the font designer, who nominates a
series of measurements in the font.

Fonts all refer to the "base line" of the character, which is the bottom of
letters that do not have a descender -- so: the line on which the letters O
and U sit. The letters g and j have descenders which extend below the base
line. In some fonts, various letters extend ABOVE the notional "top line"
of the font. An example might be f: in some fonts the top of the 'f' is
above the top line.

The font designer will also allow for a space above the letter sufficient to
be pleasing to the eye when the letters of his font appear in adjacent
lines. This measurement is expressed as a percentage of the font height
above the base line. Word reads this information from each of the fonts of
the characters on each line, and automatically sets its line height to
accommodate the font designer's preference, for the tallest letter on the
line.

For a line of Times New Roman text with a uniform size, the line height
works out to be 120 per cent of the font height. Most other fonts are at or
close to this setting. So for 10 pt text, the line height is 12 points and
thus the inter-paragraph spacing should be nine points. For 12 point text,
the line height is 14.4 pts and the space after should be 11 points, and for
14 point text it should be 16.8 and the space after 12.6.

Fashions change, in printing as in everything else. Since that article was
written, page designers have opened their text out even more. I would be
inclined to use spacing EQUAL to the line height these days. I find the
measures suggested in that article now look a little dated and cramped. On
the other hand, the use of colour in text is much more prevalent than it was
when that article was written; body text is much more likely to be
sans-serif than serif these days, and heading fonts are smaller than they
were.

But perhaps the most important thing I would say is "It's very much a
personal preference." If it looks nice to you, then stick with it: there
are no rules in this game. White space is the greatest emphasis you can use
in print. Judicious use of it is one of the real secrets to a page that
communicates well. Rather than trying to use "rules" for this, I strongly
encourage you to print a page and look at it. Your own eyes are the best
way there is to take this measurement. This is your page: your work -- if
it looks right to YOU, it IS right. Don't let anyone tell you different.

Hope this helps

On 20/7/05 7:29 PM, in article
, "Jackie D"
wrote:

Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!


--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

  #5   Report Post  
Jackie D
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Anne

Thanks for the explanation. Yes, it makes perfect sense!
--


Many thanks
JD


"Anne Troy" wrote:

Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the
lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog).
I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting
himself.
In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size,
basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing,
then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you
should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense?
*******************
~Anne Troy

www.OfficeArticles.com


"Jackie D" wrote in message
...
Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I

have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a

paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or

is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!
--


Many thanks
Jackie D






  #6   Report Post  
Jackie D
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the best
practice (to use that horrible corporate word!)
--


Many thanks
JD


"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm. FWIW,
I don't agree with everything John writes there.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Anne Troy" wrote in message
...
Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the
lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog).
I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting
himself.
In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size,
basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing,
then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you
should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense?
*******************
~Anne Troy

www.OfficeArticles.com


"Jackie D" wrote in message
...
Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused

about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I

have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua

12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a

paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above?

Or
is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm

being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the

point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!
--


Many thanks
Jackie D





  #7   Report Post  
Jackie D
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi John

Thank you so much for your very detailed response. I do appreciate it. Some
of the comments you make about typesetters are familiar to me. When I left
school some twenty-odd years ago to start career in journalism hot metal
Linotype presses were still being used.

I think your article is superb, even if it is VERY old now! Could I trouble
you for a link to the updated one?
--


Many thanks
JD


"John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macinto" wrote:

Hi Jackie:

Sorry, that's a VERY old article, which has been updated several times. The
reference to "the space above each body text para" should read "the space
BELOW each body text para."

In the old days, I used to use space above. That's a technique known as
"leading" or, correctly, "extra lead" that comes from the printing industry
at the time of hot-metal Linotype presses. Industry practice when
electronic typesetting began was to place the "spacing" ABOVE.

Microsoft Word does not always behave correctly if you do that. After years
of trying to persuade Microsoft to get it right, we all gave up and moved
our spacing to BELOW the paragraph :-) I just forgot to update that bit of
the article.

So now, we tend to define 10 pts space BELOW on every style, and 0 space
above. For headings, we tend to define twice the font height ABOVE as well
as ten points below.

The problem is this: An electronic typesetter SHOULD suppress the extra
lead (space above) for every paragraph that lands at the top of a page.
Thus the top of the text lines up neatly on the top margin of the page.

Word instead uses a complicated formula to decide whether or not it will
suppress the space above. Half the time, it gets it wrong, which gives you
a "ragged" top margin. Since we can't guarantee that Word will always do
the right thing, we found it easier to switch and put our spacing below the
style.

On Headings, you need space above, since the amount of space you should use
is a multiple of the font height of the heading: in other words, it's
different for each level of heading. We normally recommend "twice" the font
height, so if Heading 1 is set in 22 point font, you would put 44 pts space
above on Heading 1. Heading 2 might be 18 point type, and get 36 points
above. Both would have ten points below.

So the formula for inter-paragraph spacing would become "three quarters of
the Body Text line height", instead of "three quarters of the line height."
Because the line height will vary with the font size of the largest
character on the line.

As to "how do you know what the line height is", well I think it says
somewhere in that article that it is "about" 120 per cent of the font
height. The actual measurement is set by the font designer, who nominates a
series of measurements in the font.

Fonts all refer to the "base line" of the character, which is the bottom of
letters that do not have a descender -- so: the line on which the letters O
and U sit. The letters g and j have descenders which extend below the base
line. In some fonts, various letters extend ABOVE the notional "top line"
of the font. An example might be f: in some fonts the top of the 'f' is
above the top line.

The font designer will also allow for a space above the letter sufficient to
be pleasing to the eye when the letters of his font appear in adjacent
lines. This measurement is expressed as a percentage of the font height
above the base line. Word reads this information from each of the fonts of
the characters on each line, and automatically sets its line height to
accommodate the font designer's preference, for the tallest letter on the
line.

For a line of Times New Roman text with a uniform size, the line height
works out to be 120 per cent of the font height. Most other fonts are at or
close to this setting. So for 10 pt text, the line height is 12 points and
thus the inter-paragraph spacing should be nine points. For 12 point text,
the line height is 14.4 pts and the space after should be 11 points, and for
14 point text it should be 16.8 and the space after 12.6.

Fashions change, in printing as in everything else. Since that article was
written, page designers have opened their text out even more. I would be
inclined to use spacing EQUAL to the line height these days. I find the
measures suggested in that article now look a little dated and cramped. On
the other hand, the use of colour in text is much more prevalent than it was
when that article was written; body text is much more likely to be
sans-serif than serif these days, and heading fonts are smaller than they
were.

But perhaps the most important thing I would say is "It's very much a
personal preference." If it looks nice to you, then stick with it: there
are no rules in this game. White space is the greatest emphasis you can use
in print. Judicious use of it is one of the real secrets to a page that
communicates well. Rather than trying to use "rules" for this, I strongly
encourage you to print a page and look at it. Your own eyes are the best
way there is to take this measurement. This is your page: your work -- if
it looks right to YOU, it IS right. Don't let anyone tell you different.

Hope this helps

On 20/7/05 7:29 PM, in article
, "Jackie D"
wrote:

Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!


--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410


  #8   Report Post  
leftnotracks
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'm a professional typographer (which means I hardly ever use Word). So I'll
offer my $.02. If I contradict Mr. McGhie, then to heck with it.

Body copy should be at least 10 pt. type, and no larger than 12 pt, unless
set for people with particularly poor eyesight.

Leading (AKA linespacing) should be at least 20% above type size, and
probably a bit more. So 11 pt. body copy should be set on 13.5 or 14 pt
leading.

If you are using paragraph indents, then you should have no extra space
between paragraphs. If you prefer to have space between paragraphs, then do
not use paragraph indents.

Space between paragraphs should be in 1/2 line increments. Our 11/14 body
copy would have paragraph spacing of 7 or 14 pt. I prefer to use the Space
After rather than Space Before for this. Why will be clear later.

Paragraph indents should be in type size increments. Our 11 pt. body copy
should have indents of 22, 33, or 44 pts. Use larger indents for wider
columns.

Subheads should have significant contract from body copy. If using a serif
font (Garamond, Times, Georgia) for body copy, use a bold sans-serif font for
subheads (Franklin Gothic, Trebuchet, Gill Sans). Set the subhead no more
than 1 point larger than body copy. Give the subhead extra space above and no
space below. This will keep the subhead tight to the copy it follows and
create a double space above it, cueing the reader to a change in subject.

You may want several levels of subhead., The one I just stated would be the
lowest. Higher levels require more formatting, such as slight increases in
point size, restoring space below and adding more space above, using
paragraph rules (better than underlining, which should be avoided), or any or
all or the above.

"Jackie D" wrote:

Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the best
practice (to use that horrible corporate word!)
--


Many thanks
JD


"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm. FWIW,
I don't agree with everything John writes there.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Anne Troy" wrote in message
...
Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the
lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog).
I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting
himself.
In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size,
basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing,
then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you
should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense?
*******************
~Anne Troy

www.OfficeArticles.com


"Jackie D" wrote in message
...
Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused

about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I
have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua

12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a
paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above?

Or
is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm

being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the

point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!
--


Many thanks
Jackie D




  #9   Report Post  
Suzanne S. Barnhill
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'll agree with most of that. The most important point (often disregarded in
legal documents and similar dogs' breakfasts) is that a heading *must* have
more Space Before than Space After. Even if you add 3 pts Space After (as
Word's heading styles do by default), you need to have 12, 18, 24 pts Space
Before (the more leading you have in the body copy, the more space you need
before the headings).

I tend to type two very different types of copy (aside from letters, flyers,
and other odds and ends). One type of document I produce is a consulting
report (such as an appraisal or appraisal review), which is printed on
Letter-size paper. This usually uses a Body Text style that is close to the
Word default: 12 pt TNR with default (Single) line spacing, justified, no
first-line indent, and 6 pts Space After. The other type of document is a
printed book, usually a trade paperback at 6" x 9". For these I usually use
smaller type, first-line indent, and no space between paragraphs, but often
the leading is increased to make the book more readable (or more apparently
substantial).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"leftnotracks" wrote in message
...
I'm a professional typographer (which means I hardly ever use Word). So

I'll
offer my $.02. If I contradict Mr. McGhie, then to heck with it.

Body copy should be at least 10 pt. type, and no larger than 12 pt, unless
set for people with particularly poor eyesight.

Leading (AKA linespacing) should be at least 20% above type size, and
probably a bit more. So 11 pt. body copy should be set on 13.5 or 14 pt
leading.

If you are using paragraph indents, then you should have no extra space
between paragraphs. If you prefer to have space between paragraphs, then

do
not use paragraph indents.

Space between paragraphs should be in 1/2 line increments. Our 11/14 body
copy would have paragraph spacing of 7 or 14 pt. I prefer to use the Space
After rather than Space Before for this. Why will be clear later.

Paragraph indents should be in type size increments. Our 11 pt. body copy
should have indents of 22, 33, or 44 pts. Use larger indents for wider
columns.

Subheads should have significant contract from body copy. If using a serif
font (Garamond, Times, Georgia) for body copy, use a bold sans-serif font

for
subheads (Franklin Gothic, Trebuchet, Gill Sans). Set the subhead no more
than 1 point larger than body copy. Give the subhead extra space above and

no
space below. This will keep the subhead tight to the copy it follows and
create a double space above it, cueing the reader to a change in subject.

You may want several levels of subhead., The one I just stated would be

the
lowest. Higher levels require more formatting, such as slight increases in
point size, restoring space below and adding more space above, using
paragraph rules (better than underlining, which should be avoided), or any

or
all or the above.

"Jackie D" wrote:

Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the

best
practice (to use that horrible corporate word!)
--


Many thanks
JD


"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm.

FWIW,
I don't agree with everything John writes there.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the

newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Anne Troy" wrote in message
...
Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between

the
lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog).
I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's

contradicting
himself.
In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font

size,
basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line

spacing,
then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and

that you
should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense?
*******************
~Anne Troy

www.OfficeArticles.com


"Jackie D" wrote in message
...
Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to

Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by

John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit

confused
about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format

StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings

but I
have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body

text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book

Antiqua
12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a
paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to

three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a

bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space

above?
Or
is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if

I'm
being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to

the
point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!
--


Many thanks
Jackie D





  #10   Report Post  
Jackie D
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hello leftnotracks

Well this really is food for thought! Thank you for your expertise.
--


Many thanks
JD


"leftnotracks" wrote:

I'm a professional typographer (which means I hardly ever use Word). So I'll
offer my $.02. If I contradict Mr. McGhie, then to heck with it.

Body copy should be at least 10 pt. type, and no larger than 12 pt, unless
set for people with particularly poor eyesight.

Leading (AKA linespacing) should be at least 20% above type size, and
probably a bit more. So 11 pt. body copy should be set on 13.5 or 14 pt
leading.

If you are using paragraph indents, then you should have no extra space
between paragraphs. If you prefer to have space between paragraphs, then do
not use paragraph indents.

Space between paragraphs should be in 1/2 line increments. Our 11/14 body
copy would have paragraph spacing of 7 or 14 pt. I prefer to use the Space
After rather than Space Before for this. Why will be clear later.

Paragraph indents should be in type size increments. Our 11 pt. body copy
should have indents of 22, 33, or 44 pts. Use larger indents for wider
columns.

Subheads should have significant contract from body copy. If using a serif
font (Garamond, Times, Georgia) for body copy, use a bold sans-serif font for
subheads (Franklin Gothic, Trebuchet, Gill Sans). Set the subhead no more
than 1 point larger than body copy. Give the subhead extra space above and no
space below. This will keep the subhead tight to the copy it follows and
create a double space above it, cueing the reader to a change in subject.

You may want several levels of subhead., The one I just stated would be the
lowest. Higher levels require more formatting, such as slight increases in
point size, restoring space below and adding more space above, using
paragraph rules (better than underlining, which should be avoided), or any or
all or the above.

"Jackie D" wrote:

Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the best
practice (to use that horrible corporate word!)
--


Many thanks
JD


"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm. FWIW,
I don't agree with everything John writes there.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Anne Troy" wrote in message
...
Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between the
lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog).
I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's contradicting
himself.
In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font size,
basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line spacing,
then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and that you
should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense?
*******************
~Anne Troy

www.OfficeArticles.com


"Jackie D" wrote in message
...
Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused
about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I
have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua
12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a
paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above?
Or
is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm
being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the
point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!
--


Many thanks
Jackie D






  #11   Report Post  
Jackie D
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi John

I wonder if I can ask you another question about templates again?

I am trying to separate out the front page from the body of a document. I
clicked in the first page (ie the front matter page) and in page set up I
selected Section Start at Odd Page and also Different first page.

Page 2 (ie the first page of the body of the document) also says Section
start at odd page and I haven't ticked Different first page.

And yet, the front page doesn't appear to be divroced from the next page
because the formatting and styles I put in the front matter page are also in
the next page. So it seems, I haven't actually created a different first
page. Do you where I'm going wrong?
--


Many thanks
JD


"John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macinto" wrote:

Hi Jackie:

Sorry, that's a VERY old article, which has been updated several times. The
reference to "the space above each body text para" should read "the space
BELOW each body text para."

In the old days, I used to use space above. That's a technique known as
"leading" or, correctly, "extra lead" that comes from the printing industry
at the time of hot-metal Linotype presses. Industry practice when
electronic typesetting began was to place the "spacing" ABOVE.

Microsoft Word does not always behave correctly if you do that. After years
of trying to persuade Microsoft to get it right, we all gave up and moved
our spacing to BELOW the paragraph :-) I just forgot to update that bit of
the article.

So now, we tend to define 10 pts space BELOW on every style, and 0 space
above. For headings, we tend to define twice the font height ABOVE as well
as ten points below.

The problem is this: An electronic typesetter SHOULD suppress the extra
lead (space above) for every paragraph that lands at the top of a page.
Thus the top of the text lines up neatly on the top margin of the page.

Word instead uses a complicated formula to decide whether or not it will
suppress the space above. Half the time, it gets it wrong, which gives you
a "ragged" top margin. Since we can't guarantee that Word will always do
the right thing, we found it easier to switch and put our spacing below the
style.

On Headings, you need space above, since the amount of space you should use
is a multiple of the font height of the heading: in other words, it's
different for each level of heading. We normally recommend "twice" the font
height, so if Heading 1 is set in 22 point font, you would put 44 pts space
above on Heading 1. Heading 2 might be 18 point type, and get 36 points
above. Both would have ten points below.

So the formula for inter-paragraph spacing would become "three quarters of
the Body Text line height", instead of "three quarters of the line height."
Because the line height will vary with the font size of the largest
character on the line.

As to "how do you know what the line height is", well I think it says
somewhere in that article that it is "about" 120 per cent of the font
height. The actual measurement is set by the font designer, who nominates a
series of measurements in the font.

Fonts all refer to the "base line" of the character, which is the bottom of
letters that do not have a descender -- so: the line on which the letters O
and U sit. The letters g and j have descenders which extend below the base
line. In some fonts, various letters extend ABOVE the notional "top line"
of the font. An example might be f: in some fonts the top of the 'f' is
above the top line.

The font designer will also allow for a space above the letter sufficient to
be pleasing to the eye when the letters of his font appear in adjacent
lines. This measurement is expressed as a percentage of the font height
above the base line. Word reads this information from each of the fonts of
the characters on each line, and automatically sets its line height to
accommodate the font designer's preference, for the tallest letter on the
line.

For a line of Times New Roman text with a uniform size, the line height
works out to be 120 per cent of the font height. Most other fonts are at or
close to this setting. So for 10 pt text, the line height is 12 points and
thus the inter-paragraph spacing should be nine points. For 12 point text,
the line height is 14.4 pts and the space after should be 11 points, and for
14 point text it should be 16.8 and the space after 12.6.

Fashions change, in printing as in everything else. Since that article was
written, page designers have opened their text out even more. I would be
inclined to use spacing EQUAL to the line height these days. I find the
measures suggested in that article now look a little dated and cramped. On
the other hand, the use of colour in text is much more prevalent than it was
when that article was written; body text is much more likely to be
sans-serif than serif these days, and heading fonts are smaller than they
were.

But perhaps the most important thing I would say is "It's very much a
personal preference." If it looks nice to you, then stick with it: there
are no rules in this game. White space is the greatest emphasis you can use
in print. Judicious use of it is one of the real secrets to a page that
communicates well. Rather than trying to use "rules" for this, I strongly
encourage you to print a page and look at it. Your own eyes are the best
way there is to take this measurement. This is your page: your work -- if
it looks right to YOU, it IS right. Don't let anyone tell you different.

Hope this helps

On 20/7/05 7:29 PM, in article
, "Jackie D"
wrote:

Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua 12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above? Or is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!


--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410


  #12   Report Post  
Daiya Mitchell
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sounds like you need to unlink sections 1 and 2, they are linked by default.
See "what happens when you have more than one section" on this page:
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm

Also, "different first page" only applies *within* a section.

Also, in Page Setup be sure to pay attention to the "apply to" menu.

See also:

Also, re your previous question to John--he just dropped in because someone
alerted him to the thread, and may have now gone away again. I don't think
there is a link to the updated article--I think what John meant is that with
lots of edits and updates, errors got overlooked.


On 7/26/05 9:10 AM, "Jackie D" wrote:

Hi John

I wonder if I can ask you another question about templates again?

I am trying to separate out the front page from the body of a document. I
clicked in the first page (ie the front matter page) and in page set up I
selected Section Start at Odd Page and also Different first page.

Page 2 (ie the first page of the body of the document) also says Section
start at odd page and I haven't ticked Different first page.

And yet, the front page doesn't appear to be divroced from the next page
because the formatting and styles I put in the front matter page are also in
the next page. So it seems, I haven't actually created a different first
page. Do you where I'm going wrong?


--
Daiya Mitchell, MVP Mac/Word
Word FAQ: http://www.word.mvps.org/
MacWord Tips: http://www.word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/
What's an MVP? A volunteer! Read the FAQ: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/

  #13   Report Post  
Daiya Mitchell
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sorry, accidentally hit send. Second time today.
See also:

http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting...rontMatter.htm

Generally, if you have a simple doc with 1 title page and no chapters, you
can use *either* an unlinked section break *or* different first page
(preferred), but don't need both.

  #14   Report Post  
Jackie D
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Daiya

The thing is I followed the steps in a word.mvps article and used the
Different First Page but the pages still appear to be linked. So that when I
formatted the second page text, the first page formatting went all over the
place. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for answering my other query to John...

--


Many thanks
JD


"Daiya Mitchell" wrote:

Sorry, accidentally hit send. Second time today.
See also:

http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting...rontMatter.htm

Generally, if you have a simple doc with 1 title page and no chapters, you
can use *either* an unlinked section break *or* different first page
(preferred), but don't need both.


  #15   Report Post  
Suzanne S. Barnhill
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Different first page" applies only to headers and footers. If you need to
make changes in the page layout (such as margins or vertical alignment),
you'll need to insert a section break (and make sure any changes in Page
Setup are applied to "This section"). If you're talking about paragraph
styles and other such formatting, however, note that these apply to the
entire document. There is no way to have different styles with the same name
in different sections.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Jackie D" wrote in message
...
Hi John

I wonder if I can ask you another question about templates again?

I am trying to separate out the front page from the body of a document. I
clicked in the first page (ie the front matter page) and in page set up I
selected Section Start at Odd Page and also Different first page.

Page 2 (ie the first page of the body of the document) also says Section
start at odd page and I haven't ticked Different first page.

And yet, the front page doesn't appear to be divroced from the next page
because the formatting and styles I put in the front matter page are also

in
the next page. So it seems, I haven't actually created a different first
page. Do you where I'm going wrong?
--


Many thanks
JD


"John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macinto" wrote:

Hi Jackie:

Sorry, that's a VERY old article, which has been updated several times.

The
reference to "the space above each body text para" should read "the

space
BELOW each body text para."

In the old days, I used to use space above. That's a technique known as
"leading" or, correctly, "extra lead" that comes from the printing

industry
at the time of hot-metal Linotype presses. Industry practice when
electronic typesetting began was to place the "spacing" ABOVE.

Microsoft Word does not always behave correctly if you do that. After

years
of trying to persuade Microsoft to get it right, we all gave up and

moved
our spacing to BELOW the paragraph :-) I just forgot to update that bit

of
the article.

So now, we tend to define 10 pts space BELOW on every style, and 0 space
above. For headings, we tend to define twice the font height ABOVE as

well
as ten points below.

The problem is this: An electronic typesetter SHOULD suppress the extra
lead (space above) for every paragraph that lands at the top of a page.
Thus the top of the text lines up neatly on the top margin of the page.

Word instead uses a complicated formula to decide whether or not it will
suppress the space above. Half the time, it gets it wrong, which gives

you
a "ragged" top margin. Since we can't guarantee that Word will always

do
the right thing, we found it easier to switch and put our spacing below

the
style.

On Headings, you need space above, since the amount of space you should

use
is a multiple of the font height of the heading: in other words, it's
different for each level of heading. We normally recommend "twice" the

font
height, so if Heading 1 is set in 22 point font, you would put 44 pts

space
above on Heading 1. Heading 2 might be 18 point type, and get 36 points
above. Both would have ten points below.

So the formula for inter-paragraph spacing would become "three quarters

of
the Body Text line height", instead of "three quarters of the line

height."
Because the line height will vary with the font size of the largest
character on the line.

As to "how do you know what the line height is", well I think it says
somewhere in that article that it is "about" 120 per cent of the font
height. The actual measurement is set by the font designer, who

nominates a
series of measurements in the font.

Fonts all refer to the "base line" of the character, which is the bottom

of
letters that do not have a descender -- so: the line on which the

letters O
and U sit. The letters g and j have descenders which extend below the

base
line. In some fonts, various letters extend ABOVE the notional "top

line"
of the font. An example might be f: in some fonts the top of the 'f' is
above the top line.

The font designer will also allow for a space above the letter

sufficient to
be pleasing to the eye when the letters of his font appear in adjacent
lines. This measurement is expressed as a percentage of the font height
above the base line. Word reads this information from each of the fonts

of
the characters on each line, and automatically sets its line height to
accommodate the font designer's preference, for the tallest letter on

the
line.

For a line of Times New Roman text with a uniform size, the line height
works out to be 120 per cent of the font height. Most other fonts are

at or
close to this setting. So for 10 pt text, the line height is 12 points

and
thus the inter-paragraph spacing should be nine points. For 12 point

text,
the line height is 14.4 pts and the space after should be 11 points, and

for
14 point text it should be 16.8 and the space after 12.6.

Fashions change, in printing as in everything else. Since that article

was
written, page designers have opened their text out even more. I would

be
inclined to use spacing EQUAL to the line height these days. I find the
measures suggested in that article now look a little dated and cramped.

On
the other hand, the use of colour in text is much more prevalent than it

was
when that article was written; body text is much more likely to be
sans-serif than serif these days, and heading fonts are smaller than

they
were.

But perhaps the most important thing I would say is "It's very much a
personal preference." If it looks nice to you, then stick with it:

there
are no rules in this game. White space is the greatest emphasis you can

use
in print. Judicious use of it is one of the real secrets to a page that
communicates well. Rather than trying to use "rules" for this, I

strongly
encourage you to print a page and look at it. Your own eyes are the

best
way there is to take this measurement. This is your page: your work --

if
it looks right to YOU, it IS right. Don't let anyone tell you

different.

Hope this helps

On 20/7/05 7:29 PM, in article
, "Jackie D"
wrote:

Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to

Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused

about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I

have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body

text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua

12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a

paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to

three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above?

Or is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm

being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the

point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!


--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not

email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410





  #16   Report Post  
Jackie D
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Oh I see! No wonder I've been having such difficulty. Thank you again,
Suzanne. I reckon I've used up a year's quota of questions on this site over
the past two or three weeks. I'll try to stay away for a while!
--


Many thanks
JD


"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

"Different first page" applies only to headers and footers. If you need to
make changes in the page layout (such as margins or vertical alignment),
you'll need to insert a section break (and make sure any changes in Page
Setup are applied to "This section"). If you're talking about paragraph
styles and other such formatting, however, note that these apply to the
entire document. There is no way to have different styles with the same name
in different sections.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Jackie D" wrote in message
...
Hi John

I wonder if I can ask you another question about templates again?

I am trying to separate out the front page from the body of a document. I
clicked in the first page (ie the front matter page) and in page set up I
selected Section Start at Odd Page and also Different first page.

Page 2 (ie the first page of the body of the document) also says Section
start at odd page and I haven't ticked Different first page.

And yet, the front page doesn't appear to be divroced from the next page
because the formatting and styles I put in the front matter page are also

in
the next page. So it seems, I haven't actually created a different first
page. Do you where I'm going wrong?
--


Many thanks
JD


"John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macinto" wrote:

Hi Jackie:

Sorry, that's a VERY old article, which has been updated several times.

The
reference to "the space above each body text para" should read "the

space
BELOW each body text para."

In the old days, I used to use space above. That's a technique known as
"leading" or, correctly, "extra lead" that comes from the printing

industry
at the time of hot-metal Linotype presses. Industry practice when
electronic typesetting began was to place the "spacing" ABOVE.

Microsoft Word does not always behave correctly if you do that. After

years
of trying to persuade Microsoft to get it right, we all gave up and

moved
our spacing to BELOW the paragraph :-) I just forgot to update that bit

of
the article.

So now, we tend to define 10 pts space BELOW on every style, and 0 space
above. For headings, we tend to define twice the font height ABOVE as

well
as ten points below.

The problem is this: An electronic typesetter SHOULD suppress the extra
lead (space above) for every paragraph that lands at the top of a page.
Thus the top of the text lines up neatly on the top margin of the page.

Word instead uses a complicated formula to decide whether or not it will
suppress the space above. Half the time, it gets it wrong, which gives

you
a "ragged" top margin. Since we can't guarantee that Word will always

do
the right thing, we found it easier to switch and put our spacing below

the
style.

On Headings, you need space above, since the amount of space you should

use
is a multiple of the font height of the heading: in other words, it's
different for each level of heading. We normally recommend "twice" the

font
height, so if Heading 1 is set in 22 point font, you would put 44 pts

space
above on Heading 1. Heading 2 might be 18 point type, and get 36 points
above. Both would have ten points below.

So the formula for inter-paragraph spacing would become "three quarters

of
the Body Text line height", instead of "three quarters of the line

height."
Because the line height will vary with the font size of the largest
character on the line.

As to "how do you know what the line height is", well I think it says
somewhere in that article that it is "about" 120 per cent of the font
height. The actual measurement is set by the font designer, who

nominates a
series of measurements in the font.

Fonts all refer to the "base line" of the character, which is the bottom

of
letters that do not have a descender -- so: the line on which the

letters O
and U sit. The letters g and j have descenders which extend below the

base
line. In some fonts, various letters extend ABOVE the notional "top

line"
of the font. An example might be f: in some fonts the top of the 'f' is
above the top line.

The font designer will also allow for a space above the letter

sufficient to
be pleasing to the eye when the letters of his font appear in adjacent
lines. This measurement is expressed as a percentage of the font height
above the base line. Word reads this information from each of the fonts

of
the characters on each line, and automatically sets its line height to
accommodate the font designer's preference, for the tallest letter on

the
line.

For a line of Times New Roman text with a uniform size, the line height
works out to be 120 per cent of the font height. Most other fonts are

at or
close to this setting. So for 10 pt text, the line height is 12 points

and
thus the inter-paragraph spacing should be nine points. For 12 point

text,
the line height is 14.4 pts and the space after should be 11 points, and

for
14 point text it should be 16.8 and the space after 12.6.

Fashions change, in printing as in everything else. Since that article

was
written, page designers have opened their text out even more. I would

be
inclined to use spacing EQUAL to the line height these days. I find the
measures suggested in that article now look a little dated and cramped.

On
the other hand, the use of colour in text is much more prevalent than it

was
when that article was written; body text is much more likely to be
sans-serif than serif these days, and heading fonts are smaller than

they
were.

But perhaps the most important thing I would say is "It's very much a
personal preference." If it looks nice to you, then stick with it:

there
are no rules in this game. White space is the greatest emphasis you can

use
in print. Judicious use of it is one of the real secrets to a page that
communicates well. Rather than trying to use "rules" for this, I

strongly
encourage you to print a page and look at it. Your own eyes are the

best
way there is to take this measurement. This is your page: your work --

if
it looks right to YOU, it IS right. Don't let anyone tell you

different.

Hope this helps

On 20/7/05 7:29 PM, in article
, "Jackie D"
wrote:

Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to

Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit confused

about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings but I

have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body

text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book Antiqua

12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a

paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to

three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space above?

Or is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if I'm

being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to the

point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not

email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410




  #17   Report Post  
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
LAC LAC is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default line & paragraph spacing in Word

Susan,

Can you clarify something for me? When using Space before and Space after,
if you have a paragraph style that has 6 after, and a heading with 6 before,
with the spacing between the paragraph and the header be 6 pt or does it add
the "before" and "after" together to give a total space of 12? I'm trying to
set up a style sheet for some standard documents and Word seems inconsistent
in how it handles the space before and after.
--
LAC


"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

I'll agree with most of that. The most important point (often disregarded in
legal documents and similar dogs' breakfasts) is that a heading *must* have
more Space Before than Space After. Even if you add 3 pts Space After (as
Word's heading styles do by default), you need to have 12, 18, 24 pts Space
Before (the more leading you have in the body copy, the more space you need
before the headings).

I tend to type two very different types of copy (aside from letters, flyers,
and other odds and ends). One type of document I produce is a consulting
report (such as an appraisal or appraisal review), which is printed on
Letter-size paper. This usually uses a Body Text style that is close to the
Word default: 12 pt TNR with default (Single) line spacing, justified, no
first-line indent, and 6 pts Space After. The other type of document is a
printed book, usually a trade paperback at 6" x 9". For these I usually use
smaller type, first-line indent, and no space between paragraphs, but often
the leading is increased to make the book more readable (or more apparently
substantial).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"leftnotracks" wrote in message
...
I'm a professional typographer (which means I hardly ever use Word). So

I'll
offer my $.02. If I contradict Mr. McGhie, then to heck with it.

Body copy should be at least 10 pt. type, and no larger than 12 pt, unless
set for people with particularly poor eyesight.

Leading (AKA linespacing) should be at least 20% above type size, and
probably a bit more. So 11 pt. body copy should be set on 13.5 or 14 pt
leading.

If you are using paragraph indents, then you should have no extra space
between paragraphs. If you prefer to have space between paragraphs, then

do
not use paragraph indents.

Space between paragraphs should be in 1/2 line increments. Our 11/14 body
copy would have paragraph spacing of 7 or 14 pt. I prefer to use the Space
After rather than Space Before for this. Why will be clear later.

Paragraph indents should be in type size increments. Our 11 pt. body copy
should have indents of 22, 33, or 44 pts. Use larger indents for wider
columns.

Subheads should have significant contract from body copy. If using a serif
font (Garamond, Times, Georgia) for body copy, use a bold sans-serif font

for
subheads (Franklin Gothic, Trebuchet, Gill Sans). Set the subhead no more
than 1 point larger than body copy. Give the subhead extra space above and

no
space below. This will keep the subhead tight to the copy it follows and
create a double space above it, cueing the reader to a change in subject.

You may want several levels of subhead., The one I just stated would be

the
lowest. Higher levels require more formatting, such as slight increases in
point size, restoring space below and adding more space above, using
paragraph rules (better than underlining, which should be avoided), or any

or
all or the above.

"Jackie D" wrote:

Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the

best
practice (to use that horrible corporate word!)
--


Many thanks
JD


"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm.

FWIW,
I don't agree with everything John writes there.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the

newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Anne Troy" wrote in message
...
Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space between

the
lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog).
I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's

contradicting
himself.
In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the font

size,
basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line

spacing,
then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and

that you
should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense?
*******************
~Anne Troy

www.OfficeArticles.com


"Jackie D" wrote in message
...
Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to

Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation' by

John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit

confused
about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format

StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below headings

but I
have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to body

text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book

Antiqua
12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e. a
paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para to

three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm a

bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space

above?
Or
is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry if

I'm
being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to

the
point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!
--


Many thanks
Jackie D






  #18   Report Post  
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Doug Robbins - Word MVP Doug Robbins - Word MVP is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,832
Default line & paragraph spacing in Word

The values are additive.

--
Hope this helps.

Please reply to the newsgroup unless you wish to avail yourself of my
services on a paid consulting basis.

Doug Robbins - Word MVP

"LAC" wrote in message
...
Susan,

Can you clarify something for me? When using Space before and Space
after,
if you have a paragraph style that has 6 after, and a heading with 6
before,
with the spacing between the paragraph and the header be 6 pt or does it
add
the "before" and "after" together to give a total space of 12? I'm trying
to
set up a style sheet for some standard documents and Word seems
inconsistent
in how it handles the space before and after.
--
LAC


"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

I'll agree with most of that. The most important point (often disregarded
in
legal documents and similar dogs' breakfasts) is that a heading *must*
have
more Space Before than Space After. Even if you add 3 pts Space After (as
Word's heading styles do by default), you need to have 12, 18, 24 pts
Space
Before (the more leading you have in the body copy, the more space you
need
before the headings).

I tend to type two very different types of copy (aside from letters,
flyers,
and other odds and ends). One type of document I produce is a consulting
report (such as an appraisal or appraisal review), which is printed on
Letter-size paper. This usually uses a Body Text style that is close to
the
Word default: 12 pt TNR with default (Single) line spacing, justified, no
first-line indent, and 6 pts Space After. The other type of document is a
printed book, usually a trade paperback at 6" x 9". For these I usually
use
smaller type, first-line indent, and no space between paragraphs, but
often
the leading is increased to make the book more readable (or more
apparently
substantial).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup
so
all may benefit.

"leftnotracks" wrote in message
...
I'm a professional typographer (which means I hardly ever use Word). So

I'll
offer my $.02. If I contradict Mr. McGhie, then to heck with it.

Body copy should be at least 10 pt. type, and no larger than 12 pt,
unless
set for people with particularly poor eyesight.

Leading (AKA linespacing) should be at least 20% above type size, and
probably a bit more. So 11 pt. body copy should be set on 13.5 or 14 pt
leading.

If you are using paragraph indents, then you should have no extra space
between paragraphs. If you prefer to have space between paragraphs,
then

do
not use paragraph indents.

Space between paragraphs should be in 1/2 line increments. Our 11/14
body
copy would have paragraph spacing of 7 or 14 pt. I prefer to use the
Space
After rather than Space Before for this. Why will be clear later.

Paragraph indents should be in type size increments. Our 11 pt. body
copy
should have indents of 22, 33, or 44 pts. Use larger indents for wider
columns.

Subheads should have significant contract from body copy. If using a
serif
font (Garamond, Times, Georgia) for body copy, use a bold sans-serif
font

for
subheads (Franklin Gothic, Trebuchet, Gill Sans). Set the subhead no
more
than 1 point larger than body copy. Give the subhead extra space above
and

no
space below. This will keep the subhead tight to the copy it follows
and
create a double space above it, cueing the reader to a change in
subject.

You may want several levels of subhead., The one I just stated would be

the
lowest. Higher levels require more formatting, such as slight increases
in
point size, restoring space below and adding more space above, using
paragraph rules (better than underlining, which should be avoided), or
any

or
all or the above.

"Jackie D" wrote:

Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the

best
practice (to use that horrible corporate word!)
--


Many thanks
JD


"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

See
http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm.

FWIW,
I don't agree with everything John writes there.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the

newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Anne Troy" wrote in message
...
Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space
between

the
lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog).
I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's

contradicting
himself.
In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the
font

size,
basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line

spacing,
then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and

that you
should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make sense?
*******************
~Anne Troy

www.OfficeArticles.com


"Jackie D" wrote in message
...
Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to

Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation'
by

John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit

confused
about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format

StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below
headings

but I
have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to
body

text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book

Antiqua
12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text (i.e.
a
paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text para
to

three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document. I'm
a

bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no space

above?
Or
is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry
if

I'm
being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal to

the
point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!
--


Many thanks
Jackie D








  #19   Report Post  
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Suzanne S. Barnhill Suzanne S. Barnhill is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33,624
Default line & paragraph spacing in Word

It depends on a Compatibility Options settings. If you are using the default
settings in Word 2000 (I think) and above, the option "Don't use HTML
paragraph auto spacing" is NOT checked, and Word will use the greater of the
two settings. If you do check it, then the values are, as Doug says, added
together.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"LAC" wrote in message
...
Susan,

Can you clarify something for me? When using Space before and Space

after,
if you have a paragraph style that has 6 after, and a heading with 6

before,
with the spacing between the paragraph and the header be 6 pt or does it

add
the "before" and "after" together to give a total space of 12? I'm trying

to
set up a style sheet for some standard documents and Word seems

inconsistent
in how it handles the space before and after.
--
LAC


"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

I'll agree with most of that. The most important point (often

disregarded in
legal documents and similar dogs' breakfasts) is that a heading *must*

have
more Space Before than Space After. Even if you add 3 pts Space After

(as
Word's heading styles do by default), you need to have 12, 18, 24 pts

Space
Before (the more leading you have in the body copy, the more space you

need
before the headings).

I tend to type two very different types of copy (aside from letters,

flyers,
and other odds and ends). One type of document I produce is a consulting
report (such as an appraisal or appraisal review), which is printed on
Letter-size paper. This usually uses a Body Text style that is close to

the
Word default: 12 pt TNR with default (Single) line spacing, justified,

no
first-line indent, and 6 pts Space After. The other type of document is

a
printed book, usually a trade paperback at 6" x 9". For these I usually

use
smaller type, first-line indent, and no space between paragraphs, but

often
the leading is increased to make the book more readable (or more

apparently
substantial).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the

newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"leftnotracks" wrote in message
...
I'm a professional typographer (which means I hardly ever use Word).

So
I'll
offer my $.02. If I contradict Mr. McGhie, then to heck with it.

Body copy should be at least 10 pt. type, and no larger than 12 pt,

unless
set for people with particularly poor eyesight.

Leading (AKA linespacing) should be at least 20% above type size, and
probably a bit more. So 11 pt. body copy should be set on 13.5 or 14

pt
leading.

If you are using paragraph indents, then you should have no extra

space
between paragraphs. If you prefer to have space between paragraphs,

then
do
not use paragraph indents.

Space between paragraphs should be in 1/2 line increments. Our 11/14

body
copy would have paragraph spacing of 7 or 14 pt. I prefer to use the

Space
After rather than Space Before for this. Why will be clear later.

Paragraph indents should be in type size increments. Our 11 pt. body

copy
should have indents of 22, 33, or 44 pts. Use larger indents for wider
columns.

Subheads should have significant contract from body copy. If using a

serif
font (Garamond, Times, Georgia) for body copy, use a bold sans-serif

font
for
subheads (Franklin Gothic, Trebuchet, Gill Sans). Set the subhead no

more
than 1 point larger than body copy. Give the subhead extra space above

and
no
space below. This will keep the subhead tight to the copy it follows

and
create a double space above it, cueing the reader to a change in

subject.

You may want several levels of subhead., The one I just stated would

be
the
lowest. Higher levels require more formatting, such as slight

increases in
point size, restoring space below and adding more space above, using
paragraph rules (better than underlining, which should be avoided), or

any
or
all or the above.

"Jackie D" wrote:

Really? What's your take on line spacing? I'm always looking for the

best
practice (to use that horrible corporate word!)
--


Many thanks
JD


"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

See

http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customizat...platePart2.htm.
FWIW,
I don't agree with everything John writes there.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the

newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Anne Troy" wrote in message
...
Hi, Jackie. This refers to space below the paragraph. Space

between
the
lines is line spacing (in the Format Paragraph dialog).
I'm not familiar with John's book. Yes, it sounds like he's

contradicting
himself.
In Word, line height is also the line spacing, or...yes...the

font
size,
basically. I believe he's trying to say if you have double line

spacing,
then that would mean a 12pt font would be 24 points spacing, and

that you
should use 8 pts space before in that case. Does this make

sense?
*******************
~Anne Troy

www.OfficeArticles.com


"Jackie D" wrote in message
...
Hi

My query might seem basic to you Word experts but I am new to

Formatting
Styles, so please bear with me!

I've been reading 'Word Templates: A Guide to their Creation'

by
John
McGhie, which I have found incredibly useful. But I'm a bit

confused
about
his suggestions for spacing text under Format

StylesModifyParagraph.

I have no trouble understanding spacing above and below

headings
but I
have
come unstuck with the spacing suggestions when it applies to

body
text.

John suggests putting no space above and 9 pts below for Book

Antiqua
12pt
body text. Does this mean the space below a block of text

(i.e. a
paragraph)
or is it referring to the space between the lines?

John also suggests setting "the space above each body text

para to
three
quarters of its line height" for a modern looking document.

I'm a
bit
confused by this also. Is he contradicting the idea of no

space
above?
Or
is
he making a new suggestion entirely? I can't tell. And, sorry

if
I'm
being
dumb, but how do I know what the line height is? Is it equal

to
the
point
size of the text?

I'd really appreciate it if John McGhie could post a reply!
--


Many thanks
Jackie D







  #20   Report Post  
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Big Al Big Al is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default line & paragraph spacing in Word



"Daiya Mitchell" wrote:

Sounds like you need to unlink sections 1 and 2, they are linked by default.
See "what happens when you have more than one section" on this page:
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm

Also, "different first page" only applies *within* a section.

Also, in Page Setup be sure to pay attention to the "apply to" menu.

See also:

Also, re your previous question to John--he just dropped in because someone
alerted him to the thread, and may have now gone away again. I don't think
there is a link to the updated article--I think what John meant is that with
lots of edits and updates, errors got overlooked.


On 7/26/05 9:10 AM, "Jackie D" wrote:

Hi John

I wonder if I can ask you another question about templates again?

I am trying to separate out the front page from the body of a document. I
clicked in the first page (ie the front matter page) and in page set up I
selected Section Start at Odd Page and also Different first page.

Page 2 (ie the first page of the body of the document) also says Section
start at odd page and I haven't ticked Different first page.

And yet, the front page doesn't appear to be divroced from the next page
because the formatting and styles I put in the front matter page are also in
the next page. So it seems, I haven't actually created a different first
page. Do you where I'm going wrong?


--
Daiya Mitchell, MVP Mac/Word
Word FAQ: http://www.word.mvps.org/
MacWord Tips: http://www.word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/
What's an MVP? A volunteer! Read the FAQ: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/

Hello I have a problem I am new to Word and I need to know 3 things ( how to do them )


1. Change the line spacing of a list.
2. Change the line spacing of a paragraph of text.
3. Change the paragraph spacing between body text and a heading.

Thank You.


  #21   Report Post  
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Suzanne S. Barnhill Suzanne S. Barnhill is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33,624
Default line & paragraph spacing in Word

Paragraph spacing is set in the Paragraph dialog. Preferably you should
change the spacing for the related style (see
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/styl...fyAStyle.html).

Note, however, that not only have you tagged onto a very old and entirely
unrelated thread, but your phrasing suggests that these are homework
questions, which you should probably figure out the answer to by yourself.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

"Big AL" wrote in message
...


"Daiya Mitchell" wrote:

Sounds like you need to unlink sections 1 and 2, they are linked by
default.
See "what happens when you have more than one section" on this page:
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/HeaderFooter.htm

Also, "different first page" only applies *within* a section.

Also, in Page Setup be sure to pay attention to the "apply to" menu.

See also:

Also, re your previous question to John--he just dropped in because
someone
alerted him to the thread, and may have now gone away again. I don't
think
there is a link to the updated article--I think what John meant is that
with
lots of edits and updates, errors got overlooked.


On 7/26/05 9:10 AM, "Jackie D" wrote:

Hi John

I wonder if I can ask you another question about templates again?

I am trying to separate out the front page from the body of a document.
I
clicked in the first page (ie the front matter page) and in page set up
I
selected Section Start at Odd Page and also Different first page.

Page 2 (ie the first page of the body of the document) also says
Section
start at odd page and I haven't ticked Different first page.

And yet, the front page doesn't appear to be divroced from the next
page
because the formatting and styles I put in the front matter page are
also in
the next page. So it seems, I haven't actually created a different
first
page. Do you where I'm going wrong?


--
Daiya Mitchell, MVP Mac/Word
Word FAQ: http://www.word.mvps.org/
MacWord Tips: http://www.word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/
What's an MVP? A volunteer! Read the FAQ:
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/

Hello I have a problem I am new to Word and I need to know 3 things ( how
to do them )


1. Change the line spacing of a list.
2. Change the line spacing of a paragraph of text.
3. Change the paragraph spacing between body text and a heading.

Thank You.


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