[Three Lefts]

Word 2007 gives me a grammar error on this sentence:

I am meeting with the parents tomorrow afternoon.

None of these variations get errors:

I am meeting with the parents tomorrow.
I am meeting with the parents this afternoon.
I am meeting with the team tomorrow afternoon.

Assuming I don't have some setting wrong, isthere someplace that I can
report this?

I run into glitches like this all the time.

[Terry Farrell]

That's because all your examples are grammatically correct even though not
shinning examples of good sentence construction.

--
Terry Farrell - MSWord MVP

"Three Lefts" wrote in message
...
Word 2007 gives me a grammar error on this sentence:

I am meeting with the parents tomorrow afternoon.

None of these variations get errors:

I am meeting with the parents tomorrow.
I am meeting with the parents this afternoon.
I am meeting with the team tomorrow afternoon.

Assuming I don't have some setting wrong, isthere someplace that I can
report this?

I run into glitches like this all the time.

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

That's not his point, Terry. His point is that the first example (which Word
marks as ungrammatical) is equally unexceptionable.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

"Terry Farrell" wrote in message
...
That's because all your examples are grammatically correct even though not
shinning examples of good sentence construction.

--
Terry Farrell - MSWord MVP

"Three Lefts" wrote in message
...
Word 2007 gives me a grammar error on this sentence:

I am meeting with the parents tomorrow afternoon.

None of these variations get errors:

I am meeting with the parents tomorrow.
I am meeting with the parents this afternoon.
I am meeting with the team tomorrow afternoon.

Assuming I don't have some setting wrong, isthere someplace that I can
report this?

I run into glitches like this all the time.

[Three Lefts]

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:33:15 +0100, "Terry Farrell"
wrote:

That's because all your examples are grammatically correct even though not
shinning examples of good sentence construction.

Then why did it flag one and not the others?

Are you saying that the grammar checker flags sentences that are not
shinning [sic] examples as well as those with errors?

Perhaps, Dr. Farrell, you could educate me on what it is about those
sentences that fails your test for good sentence structure.

[Three Lefts]

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:11:12 -0500, "Suzanne S. Barnhill"
wrote:

That's not his point, Terry. His point is that the first example (which Word
marks as ungrammatical) is equally unexceptionable.

That was my tertiary point.

My primary point/question was whether there is someplace that users
can report glitches.

My secondary point had to do with whether this is a bug in the grammar
checker. In my opinion, it is.

Exhibit A: If I right click on the flagged word (parents), I am
offererd two alternative spellings: "parent's" and "parents'". If I
replace "parents" with either alternative,

I am meeting with the parent's tomorrow afternoon.
I am meeting with the parents' tomorrow afternoon.

Word is happy. These sentences are now gramatically incorrect ihn
addition to being non-shinning.

Exhibit B: If I right-click on the flagged word and choose About this
sentence, I get this:

Possessive Use
If you are using a singular noun to indicate possession, use an
apostrophe before the "s." If you are using a plural noun, use an
apostrophe after the "s."

Instead of: Both neighbors dogs barked all night long.
Consider: Both neighbors' dogs barked all night long.

Instead of: Ice hockey is Toms favorite sport.
Consider: Ice hockey is Tom's favorite sport.

Clearly Word has completely misunderstood the sentence. At least this
error message is consistent with the suggested spelling alternatives
-- consistently wrong.

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Word is unable to recognize "tomorrow afternoon" as an adverbial
construction. Just one more example of why I don't bother with the grammar
checker.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

"Three Lefts" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:11:12 -0500, "Suzanne S. Barnhill"
wrote:

That's not his point, Terry. His point is that the first example (which
Word
marks as ungrammatical) is equally unexceptionable.

That was my tertiary point.

My primary point/question was whether there is someplace that users
can report glitches.

My secondary point had to do with whether this is a bug in the grammar
checker. In my opinion, it is.

Exhibit A: If I right click on the flagged word (parents), I am
offererd two alternative spellings: "parent's" and "parents'". If I
replace "parents" with either alternative,

I am meeting with the parent's tomorrow afternoon.
I am meeting with the parents' tomorrow afternoon.

Word is happy. These sentences are now gramatically incorrect ihn
addition to being non-shinning.

Exhibit B: If I right-click on the flagged word and choose About this
sentence, I get this:

Possessive Use
If you are using a singular noun to indicate possession, use an
apostrophe before the "s." If you are using a plural noun, use an
apostrophe after the "s."

Instead of: Both neighbors dogs barked all night long.
Consider: Both neighbors' dogs barked all night long.

Instead of: Ice hockey is Toms favorite sport.
Consider: Ice hockey is Tom's favorite sport.

Clearly Word has completely misunderstood the sentence. At least this
error message is consistent with the suggested spelling alternatives
-- consistently wrong.

[Three Lefts]

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:53:01 -0500, "Suzanne S. Barnhill"
wrote:

Word is unable to recognize "tomorrow afternoon" as an adverbial
construction. Just one more example of why I don't bother with the grammar
checker.

So it is a bug. Now maybe I can get an answer to my main question: Is
there someplace to send these bug reports?

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

If there were a place, you would have been told.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

"Three Lefts" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:53:01 -0500, "Suzanne S. Barnhill"
wrote:

Word is unable to recognize "tomorrow afternoon" as an adverbial
construction. Just one more example of why I don't bother with the grammar
checker.

So it is a bug. Now maybe I can get an answer to my main question: Is
there someplace to send these bug reports?

[Terry Farrell]

Suzanne

I miss understood that, but see clearly from the next post.

Terry

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
That's not his point, Terry. His point is that the first example (which
Word marks as ungrammatical) is equally unexceptionable.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

"Terry Farrell" wrote in message
...
That's because all your examples are grammatically correct even though
not shinning examples of good sentence construction.

--
Terry Farrell - MSWord MVP

"Three Lefts" wrote in message
...
Word 2007 gives me a grammar error on this sentence:

I am meeting with the parents tomorrow afternoon.

None of these variations get errors:

I am meeting with the parents tomorrow.
I am meeting with the parents this afternoon.
I am meeting with the team tomorrow afternoon.

Assuming I don't have some setting wrong, isthere someplace that I can
report this?

I run into glitches like this all the time.

[Doug Robbins - Word MVP]

While I would not hold my breath waiting, the
microsoft.public.word.spelling.grammar newsgroups would be a more
appropriate newsgroup than this one. Very, very, very occasionally, there
is a Microsoft employee who provides responses in that group.

--
Hope this helps.

Please reply to the newsgroup unless you wish to avail yourself of my
services on a paid consulting basis.

Doug Robbins - Word MVP

"Three Lefts" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:53:01 -0500, "Suzanne S. Barnhill"
wrote:

Word is unable to recognize "tomorrow afternoon" as an adverbial
construction. Just one more example of why I don't bother with the grammar
checker.

So it is a bug. Now maybe I can get an answer to my main question: Is
there someplace to send these bug reports?

[Beth Melton]

But even if a softie were to be there wouldn't something like this be pretty
low priority? I've always felt the grammar checker was designed to flag
areas that you need to scrutinize and wasn't intended to be infallible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton

"Doug Robbins - Word MVP" wrote in message
...
While I would not hold my breath waiting, the
microsoft.public.word.spelling.grammar newsgroups would be a more
appropriate newsgroup than this one. Very, very, very occasionally, there
is a Microsoft employee who provides responses in that group.

[Terry Farrell]

It's almost impossible to be 'fallible' with English grammar because it is
too complex, has too many exceptions to rules; even scholars and reference
books disagree over many of the finer points, let alone simple points such
as the use of the comma. A perfect grammar checker would constantly dispute
it self. So it must be getting close

Terry Farrell

"Beth Melton" wrote in message
...
But even if a softie were to be there wouldn't something like this be
pretty low priority? I've always felt the grammar checker was designed to
flag areas that you need to scrutinize and wasn't intended to be
infallible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton

"Doug Robbins - Word MVP" wrote in message
...
While I would not hold my breath waiting, the
microsoft.public.word.spelling.grammar newsgroups would be a more
appropriate newsgroup than this one. Very, very, very occasionally,
there is a Microsoft employee who provides responses in that group.

[Terry Farrell]

I remember telling Microsoft that for at least three Office betas before it
was finally corrected.

In Microsoft's defense, they do not manage the spelling or grammar
references: they are outsourced.

Terry Farrell

Marsoupeal wrote in message
...
"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in
:

Word is unable to recognize "tomorrow afternoon" as an adverbial
construction. Just one more example of why I don't bother with the
grammar checker.

I don't know if you knew this, but for a long time in its early
development
the UK dictionary accepted the spelling "liason."

[Three Lefts]

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:35:05 +0100, "Terry Farrell"
wrote:

It's almost impossible to be 'fallible' with English grammar because it is
too complex, has too many exceptions to rules; even scholars and reference
books disagree over many of the finer points, let alone simple points such
as the use of the comma. A perfect grammar checker would constantly dispute
it self. So it must be getting close

It's good you said "almost". A perfect grammar checker may be
impossible, but not for the reasons you cite. You remind me of the
Luddite professor I had in a computer science class way back in 1968.
He professed to the class that computers would never be able to
"think". As an example, he stated that computers would never be able
to play chess at the grand master level. He had the handicap of being
a member of a fundamentalist religion. I'm not sure what your problem
is.

In any case, this is all irrelevant to my original point. The sentence
the grammar checker flagged is perfectly correct even if it doesn't
measure up to your standards. Worse, it flags some sentences and not
other similar sentences. This is a bug in the grammar checker no
matter what the Microsoft apologists say. It's a bug.

Terry Farrell

"Beth Melton" wrote in message
...
But even if a softie were to be there wouldn't something like this be
pretty low priority? I've always felt the grammar checker was designed to
flag areas that you need to scrutinize and wasn't intended to be
infallible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton

"Doug Robbins - Word MVP" wrote in message
...
While I would not hold my breath waiting, the
microsoft.public.word.spelling.grammar newsgroups would be a more
appropriate newsgroup than this one. Very, very, very occasionally,
there is a Microsoft employee who provides responses in that group.

[Three Lefts]

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:36:59 +0100, "Terry Farrell"
wrote:

I remember telling Microsoft that for at least three Office betas before it
was finally corrected.

In Microsoft's defense, they do not manage the spelling or grammar
references: they are outsourced.

Bull****. It's a Microsoft product. They are responsible for it.
Period.

Terry Farrell

Marsoupeal wrote in message
.. .
"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in
:

Word is unable to recognize "tomorrow afternoon" as an adverbial
construction. Just one more example of why I don't bother with the
grammar checker.

I don't know if you knew this, but for a long time in its early
development
the UK dictionary accepted the spelling "liason."

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

It is quite possible for the grammar checker to be fallible, and in fact it
has been amply demonstrated that it is. What is much more of a challenge is
being infallible. I think even the pope manages this only by definition.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

"Terry Farrell" wrote in message
...
It's almost impossible to be 'fallible' with English grammar because it is
too complex, has too many exceptions to rules; even scholars and reference
books disagree over many of the finer points, let alone simple points such
as the use of the comma. A perfect grammar checker would constantly
dispute it self. So it must be getting close

Terry Farrell

"Beth Melton" wrote in message
...
But even if a softie were to be there wouldn't something like this be
pretty low priority? I've always felt the grammar checker was designed to
flag areas that you need to scrutinize and wasn't intended to be
infallible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton

"Doug Robbins - Word MVP" wrote in message
...
While I would not hold my breath waiting, the
microsoft.public.word.spelling.grammar newsgroups would be a more
appropriate newsgroup than this one. Very, very, very occasionally,
there is a Microsoft employee who provides responses in that group.

[Beth Melton]

No one here is a "Microsoft apologist". MVPs are actually some of
Microsoft's biggest critics. I give them an earful every chance I get!
grin

Sure, it could be a bug but to be perfectly honest I don't care if the
grammar checker makes an incorrect suggestion if it means taking time away
from the developers tackling issues that prevent me from getting my work
done, working on a feature that will increase my productivity, or more
importantly, tackling issues that cause Word to crash. With that in mind, if
I came across this during the beta I wouldn't take the time to report it or
give them an 'earful' about it.

By no means am I trying to downplay your concerns, I realize everyone has
their own priorities, but the grammar checker isn't one of mine. :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton

"Three Lefts" wrote in message
...
This is a bug in the grammar checker no
matter what the Microsoft apologists say. It's a bug.

[Three Lefts]

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:34:21 -0500, "Beth Melton"
wrote:

No one here is a "Microsoft apologist". MVPs are actually some of
Microsoft's biggest critics. I give them an earful every chance I get!
grin

Sure, it could be a bug but to be perfectly honest I don't care if the
grammar checker makes an incorrect suggestion if it means taking time away
from the developers tackling issues that prevent me from getting my work
done, working on a feature that will increase my productivity, or more
importantly, tackling issues that cause Word to crash.

Microsoft has obscene profits. They ought to be able to fix both big
and little problems. I never said this was life or death. actually, I
mainly asked if there is someplace to report these bugs so that when
and if anyone at Microsoft happens to give a ****, they would have
some data to look at.

What I got back was a bunch of pedantic criticism of my writing style
and other irrelevant comments on how the grammar checker really ought
to be fallible.

I was trying to be helpful. I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

With that in mind, if
I came across this during the beta I wouldn't take the time to report it or
give them an 'earful' about it.

Sounds to me like you have long ago decided that the bar for Mircosoft
products is pretty low. No point in reporting anything that doesn;t
cause Word to crash, which it also does fairly frequently.

By no means am I trying to downplay your concerns, I realize everyone has
their own priorities, but the grammar checker isn't one of mine. :-)

It's not one of mine either. I discovered a bug. I thought I see if
anyone gave a damn. Obviously, not.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton

"Three Lefts" wrote in message
.. .
This is a bug in the grammar checker no
matter what the Microsoft apologists say. It's a bug.

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

We would all like every Microsoft product to be perfect (and I think you
would find that is true of everyone at Microsoft as well). It's not really
an issue of cost so much as of time: a "perfect" product would never reach
market-readiness.

There are ways to report bugs, and all reported bugs are considered. But the
decision to allocate resources to a bug is based on the seriousness of the
bug and the number of users it affects. Bugs that cause Word to crash for
all users are obviously the most important. Any bug that is encountered by
few users and has a workaround will be a much lower priority. We could
report this issue for you, but we know that it would have such a low
priority that it wouldn't be worth anyone's time to report or look at.

In any case, IMO this is not really a bug, anyway: it's a flaw. It would be
a bug if, having determined that your grammar was incorrect, Word would not
let you save or print the document. As it is, it's a minor annoyance.

It's obvious, though, that we're not going to convince you. You detest
Microsoft and all its works and are determined to reject any response you
receive, no matter how well-intended, so I'm obviously wasting my energy.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

"Three Lefts" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:34:21 -0500, "Beth Melton"
wrote:

No one here is a "Microsoft apologist". MVPs are actually some of
Microsoft's biggest critics. I give them an earful every chance I get!
grin

Sure, it could be a bug but to be perfectly honest I don't care if the
grammar checker makes an incorrect suggestion if it means taking time away
from the developers tackling issues that prevent me from getting my work
done, working on a feature that will increase my productivity, or more
importantly, tackling issues that cause Word to crash.

Microsoft has obscene profits. They ought to be able to fix both big
and little problems. I never said this was life or death. actually, I
mainly asked if there is someplace to report these bugs so that when
and if anyone at Microsoft happens to give a ****, they would have
some data to look at.

What I got back was a bunch of pedantic criticism of my writing style
and other irrelevant comments on how the grammar checker really ought
to be fallible.

I was trying to be helpful. I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

With that in mind, if
I came across this during the beta I wouldn't take the time to report it
or
give them an 'earful' about it.

Sounds to me like you have long ago decided that the bar for Mircosoft
products is pretty low. No point in reporting anything that doesn;t
cause Word to crash, which it also does fairly frequently.

By no means am I trying to downplay your concerns, I realize everyone has
their own priorities, but the grammar checker isn't one of mine. :-)

It's not one of mine either. I discovered a bug. I thought I see if
anyone gave a damn. Obviously, not.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton

"Three Lefts" wrote in message
. ..
This is a bug in the grammar checker no
matter what the Microsoft apologists say. It's a bug.

[Beth Melton]

"Three Lefts" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:34:21 -0500, "Beth Melton"
wrote:

Microsoft has obscene profits. They ought to be able to fix both big
and little problems. I never said this was life or death. actually, I
mainly asked if there is someplace to report these bugs so that when
and if anyone at Microsoft happens to give a ****, they would have
some data to look at.

What I got back was a bunch of pedantic criticism of my writing style
and other irrelevant comments on how the grammar checker really ought
to be fallible.

I was trying to be helpful. I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

I wasn't my intention to make you feel this way, I'm sorry if I did. As
Suzanne noted, we (as MVPs) do have a way to report bugs to Microsoft but at
the same time we must choose what we escalate carefully and prioritize those
we do report for the reasons she stated. What you are 'hearing' is us
hashing out the priority of the issue -- we're not attempting to criticize
you or your findings. :-)

With that in mind, if
I came across this during the beta I wouldn't take the time to report it
or
give them an 'earful' about it.

Sounds to me like you have long ago decided that the bar for Mircosoft
products is pretty low. No point in reporting anything that doesn;t
cause Word to crash, which it also does fairly frequently.

By no means am I trying to downplay your concerns, I realize everyone has
their own priorities, but the grammar checker isn't one of mine. :-)

It's not one of mine either. I discovered a bug. I thought I see if
anyone gave a damn. Obviously, not.

We do. And what you found is good to know. Should the topic of grammar check
issues ever come up I've have the examples you provided in the notes I keep.
Thanks!

~Beth Melton

[JethroUK©]

it doesn't seem to like 'tomorrow' & 'afternoon' together - prolly seeing
these as independent words

but neither does it like my name 'JethroUK' - hence it has facility to
ignore it

English grammar is very complicated and to assume MS Word can handle it
'all' is unreasonable at very least


"Three Lefts" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:33:15 +0100, "Terry Farrell"
wrote:

That's because all your examples are grammatically correct even though not
shinning examples of good sentence construction.

Then why did it flag one and not the others?

Are you saying that the grammar checker flags sentences that are not
shinning [sic] examples as well as those with errors?

Perhaps, Dr. Farrell, you could educate me on what it is about those
sentences that fails your test for good sentence structure.

[Three Lefts]

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:15:03 -0500, "Beth Melton"
wrote:

"Three Lefts" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:34:21 -0500, "Beth Melton"
wrote:

Microsoft has obscene profits. They ought to be able to fix both big
and little problems. I never said this was life or death. actually, I
mainly asked if there is someplace to report these bugs so that when
and if anyone at Microsoft happens to give a ****, they would have
some data to look at.

What I got back was a bunch of pedantic criticism of my writing style
and other irrelevant comments on how the grammar checker really ought
to be fallible.

I was trying to be helpful. I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

I wasn't my intention to make you feel this way, I'm sorry if I did.

You did not. You never do. Beth, I have always found you to be helpful
and respectful. Doug Robbins is another MVP who can be counted on.
Some others, not so much.

As
Suzanne noted, we (as MVPs) do have a way to report bugs to Microsoft but at
the same time we must choose what we escalate carefully and prioritize those
we do report for the reasons she stated.

I wasn't asking anyone to report anything. I realize this is low on
the priority list. (Of course, this is because Microsoft puts out
bug-riddled products. There are fairly significant bugs in Word that
have been known for many releases, such as the Jason tabs.) I simply
asked if there might be someplace where *I* could report what I found.

What you are 'hearing' is us
hashing out the priority of the issue -- we're not attempting to criticize
you or your findings. :-)

You didn't, but others did. First, my writing style was criticized (by
two MVPs). Then I was told that the grammar checker really was never
intended to do the job right. (Sounds like an apologist to me.) Then I
was told that it wasn't even a bug, but a "flaw". (Suzanne should be
in politics.) Then I was told that I should have realized that the
answer to my original question (where to report this) was nowhere
because no one said somewhere. (Again, Suzanne, I think you fit better
in politics.) Finally, I was told that I detest Microsoft and so do
not merit a response.

With that in mind, if
I came across this during the beta I wouldn't take the time to report it
or
give them an 'earful' about it.

Sounds to me like you have long ago decided that the bar for Mircosoft
products is pretty low. No point in reporting anything that doesn;t
cause Word to crash, which it also does fairly frequently.

By no means am I trying to downplay your concerns, I realize everyone has
their own priorities, but the grammar checker isn't one of mine. :-)

It's not one of mine either. I discovered a bug. I thought I see if
anyone gave a damn. Obviously, not.

We do. And what you found is good to know. Should the topic of grammar check
issues ever come up I've have the examples you provided in the notes I keep.
Thanks!

If someone had said that i the beginning, this would have been a
2-post thread.

~Beth Melton

Thanks, Beth

[Beth Melton]

"Three Lefts" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:15:03 -0500, "Beth Melton"
wrote:
I was trying to be helpful. I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

I wasn't my intention to make you feel this way, I'm sorry if I did.

You did not. You never do. Beth, I have always found you to be helpful
and respectful.

Why thank you! It's difficult to convey "tone" in writing and you never know
how your words might be taken. Your comment is very reassuring. :-)

As
Suzanne noted, we (as MVPs) do have a way to report bugs to Microsoft but
at
the same time we must choose what we escalate carefully and prioritize
those
we do report for the reasons she stated.

I wasn't asking anyone to report anything. I realize this is low on
the priority list. (Of course, this is because Microsoft puts out
bug-riddled products. There are fairly significant bugs in Word that
have been known for many releases, such as the Jason tabs.) I simply
asked if there might be someplace where *I* could report what I found.

I wish there were a such a place but I also understand why there isn't. What
you found is obviously legitimate but the majority of what many folks think
are bugs aren't actually bugs. For example we see numerous posts in the
newsgroups where folks think seeing field codes in their document or
formatting marks is a bug and a bug reporting tool will be filled with
similar reports.

Should the topic of grammar check
issues ever come up I've have the examples you provided in the notes I
keep.
Thanks!

If someone had said that i the beginning, this would have been a
2-post thread.

Welcome to the newsgroups. LOL

Thanks, Beth

You're welcome. :-)

~Beth Melton