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Confused? Confused? is offline
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Default Use of clipart in a product that will be sold, stickers, etc.?

I am unsure of what kind of clipart can be used when making products that
will be sold, such as a sticker or game using an image. Can I use free
clipart from mircosoft ect. when making these items or not? Thanks!
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Tom Willett Tom Willett is offline
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Posts: 217
Default Use of clipart in a product that will be sold, stickers, etc.?

No.

"Confused?" wrote in message
...
|I am unsure of what kind of clipart can be used when making products that
| will be sold, such as a sticker or game using an image. Can I use free
| clipart from mircosoft ect. when making these items or not? Thanks!


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Suzanne S. Barnhill Suzanne S. Barnhill is offline
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Posts: 33,624
Default Use of clipart in a product that will be sold, stickers, etc.?

Probably. In general, the license lets you use the clip art for pretty much
anything that doesn't constitute reselling the art as part of a clip art
collection. But see
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/as...900871033.aspx

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Tom Willett" wrote in message
...
No.

"Confused?" wrote in message
...
|I am unsure of what kind of clipart can be used when making products that
| will be sold, such as a sticker or game using an image. Can I use free
| clipart from mircosoft ect. when making these items or not? Thanks!



  #4   Report Post  
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JoAnn Paules [MVP] JoAnn Paules [MVP] is offline
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Posts: 2,113
Default Use of clipart in a product that will be sold, stickers, etc.?

Per http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4

The following guidelines apply to the use of clip art:

1.
You may use clip art in your school assignments and projects.

2.
You may use clip art in your church brochure.

3.
You may use clip art for personal, noncommercial uses.

4.
You may not use clip art to advertise your business.

5.
You may not use clip art to create a company logo.

6.
You may not use clip art to illustrate the chapters of a book.




Number 3 pretty much says they can't.

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
Probably. In general, the license lets you use the clip art for pretty
much
anything that doesn't constitute reselling the art as part of a clip art
collection. But see
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/as...900871033.aspx

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup
so
all may benefit.

"Tom Willett" wrote in message
...
No.

"Confused?" wrote in message
...
|I am unsure of what kind of clipart can be used when making products
that
| will be sold, such as a sticker or game using an image. Can I use free
| clipart from mircosoft ect. when making these items or not? Thanks!





  #5   Report Post  
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Suzanne S. Barnhill Suzanne S. Barnhill is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33,624
Default Use of clipart in a product that will be sold, stickers, etc.?

This is a considerable change from former times. The EULA used to be
somewhat different for Publisher than for Word, but it still permitted use
of clip art in advertising, books, and other products for sale provided the
art itself was not the product being sold. I'm rather surprised, actually.

BTW, notice the circular references involved. The page at
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4 says: "If
you obtained the artwork from Office Online, you can find the EULA at
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX100667421033.aspx." If you click on that
link, you get to a page of "
Legal Information." If you click on "Copyrighted Materials Permission," you
get right back where you started!

And if you go to http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...s/default.aspx
and select Publisher, IE goes off into Neverland for quite a long time
before you get to select the version, then again before you can select the
language, then again... (why can't it wait for you to select all three
before looking for the appropriate page?). And then it finally offers you a
PDF, and that completely hung IE. sigh

The bottom line, however (for Publisher 2003), is as follows:

1.5 License Grant for Media Elements. The Software may include certain
photographs, clip art, shapes, animations, sounds, music and video clips
that are identified in the Software for your use (together "Media
Elements"). You may copy and modify the Media Elements, and license, display
and distribute them, along with your modifications as part of your software
products and services, including your web sites, but you are not licensed to
do any of the following:

• You may not sell, license or distribute copies of the Media Elements by
themselves or as part of any collection, product or service if the primary
value of the product or service is in the Media Elements.

• You may not grant customers of your product or service any rights to
license or distribute the Media Elements.

• You may not license or distribute any of the Media Elements that include
representations of identifiable individuals, governments, logos, initials,
emblems, trademarks, or entities for any commercial purposes or to express
or imply any endorsement or association with any product, service, entity,
or activity.

• You may not create obscene or scandalous works, as defined by federal law
at the time the work is created, using the Media Elements.

In addition, you must (a) indemnify and defend Microsoft from and against
any claims or lawsuits, including attorneys' fees that arise from or result
from the licensing, use or distribution of Media Elements as modified by
you, and (b) include a valid copyright notice on your products and services
that include the Media Elements.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
Per http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4

The following guidelines apply to the use of clip art:

1.
You may use clip art in your school assignments and projects.

2.
You may use clip art in your church brochure.

3.
You may use clip art for personal, noncommercial uses.

4.
You may not use clip art to advertise your business.

5.
You may not use clip art to create a company logo.

6.
You may not use clip art to illustrate the chapters of a book.




Number 3 pretty much says they can't.

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
Probably. In general, the license lets you use the clip art for pretty
much
anything that doesn't constitute reselling the art as part of a clip art
collection. But see
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/as...900871033.aspx

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the

newsgroup
so
all may benefit.

"Tom Willett" wrote in message
...
No.

"Confused?" wrote in message
...
|I am unsure of what kind of clipart can be used when making products
that
| will be sold, such as a sticker or game using an image. Can I use

free
| clipart from mircosoft ect. when making these items or not? Thanks!








  #6   Report Post  
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
JoAnn Paules [MVP] JoAnn Paules [MVP] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,113
Default Use of clipart in a product that will be sold, stickers, etc.?

You made me curious about Office 2007. I have Pub 2007 installed and checked
the EULA. It says:

"Media Elements and Templates. You may copy and use images, clip art,
animations, sounds, music, shapes, video clips and templates provided with
the software and identified for such use in documents and projects that you
create. You may distribute those documents and projects non-commercially.
If you wish to use these media elements or templates for any other purpose,
go to www.microsoft.com/permission to learn whether that use is allowed."

Looks like things have changed.


--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
This is a considerable change from former times. The EULA used to be
somewhat different for Publisher than for Word, but it still permitted use
of clip art in advertising, books, and other products for sale provided
the
art itself was not the product being sold. I'm rather surprised, actually.

BTW, notice the circular references involved. The page at
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4 says: "If
you obtained the artwork from Office Online, you can find the EULA at
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX100667421033.aspx." If you click on
that
link, you get to a page of "
Legal Information." If you click on "Copyrighted Materials Permission,"
you
get right back where you started!

And if you go to
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...s/default.aspx
and select Publisher, IE goes off into Neverland for quite a long time
before you get to select the version, then again before you can select the
language, then again... (why can't it wait for you to select all three
before looking for the appropriate page?). And then it finally offers you
a
PDF, and that completely hung IE. sigh

The bottom line, however (for Publisher 2003), is as follows:

1.5 License Grant for Media Elements. The Software may include certain
photographs, clip art, shapes, animations, sounds, music and video clips
that are identified in the Software for your use (together "Media
Elements"). You may copy and modify the Media Elements, and license,
display
and distribute them, along with your modifications as part of your
software
products and services, including your web sites, but you are not licensed
to
do any of the following:

• You may not sell, license or distribute copies of the Media Elements by
themselves or as part of any collection, product or service if the primary
value of the product or service is in the Media Elements.

• You may not grant customers of your product or service any rights to
license or distribute the Media Elements.

• You may not license or distribute any of the Media Elements that include
representations of identifiable individuals, governments, logos, initials,
emblems, trademarks, or entities for any commercial purposes or to express
or imply any endorsement or association with any product, service, entity,
or activity.

• You may not create obscene or scandalous works, as defined by federal
law
at the time the work is created, using the Media Elements.

In addition, you must (a) indemnify and defend Microsoft from and against
any claims or lawsuits, including attorneys' fees that arise from or
result
from the licensing, use or distribution of Media Elements as modified by
you, and (b) include a valid copyright notice on your products and
services
that include the Media Elements.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup
so
all may benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
Per http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4

The following guidelines apply to the use of clip art:

1.
You may use clip art in your school assignments and projects.

2.
You may use clip art in your church brochure.

3.
You may use clip art for personal, noncommercial uses.

4.
You may not use clip art to advertise your business.

5.
You may not use clip art to create a company logo.

6.
You may not use clip art to illustrate the chapters of a book.




Number 3 pretty much says they can't.

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
Probably. In general, the license lets you use the clip art for pretty
much
anything that doesn't constitute reselling the art as part of a clip
art
collection. But see
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/as...900871033.aspx

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the

newsgroup
so
all may benefit.

"Tom Willett" wrote in message
...
No.

"Confused?" wrote in message
...
|I am unsure of what kind of clipart can be used when making products
that
| will be sold, such as a sticker or game using an image. Can I use

free
| clipart from mircosoft ect. when making these items or not? Thanks!








  #7   Report Post  
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Suzanne S. Barnhill Suzanne S. Barnhill is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33,624
Default Use of clipart in a product that will be sold, stickers, etc.?

The crux is what is meant by "non-commercially." Does "commercially" mean
you're selling the images (obviously not allowed), selling something that
contains the images (used to be allowed), selling yourself or a product or
service using the images (used to be allowed), etc.?

I guess it's just as well that I don't use any kind of clip art much at all
and in any case use it almost exclusively for (a) posters for the library
book review program (when the topic is not a book) or (b) pages for the room
books of a client's B&B (she has binders full of instructions for guests,
one per page, each with a clip art illustration). Sometimes I'm able to find
art in the Clip Art Gallery (online), but more often I resort to Google
Images.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
You made me curious about Office 2007. I have Pub 2007 installed and

checked
the EULA. It says:

"Media Elements and Templates. You may copy and use images, clip art,
animations, sounds, music, shapes, video clips and templates provided with
the software and identified for such use in documents and projects that

you
create. You may distribute those documents and projects non-commercially.
If you wish to use these media elements or templates for any other

purpose,
go to www.microsoft.com/permission to learn whether that use is allowed."

Looks like things have changed.


--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
This is a considerable change from former times. The EULA used to be
somewhat different for Publisher than for Word, but it still permitted

use
of clip art in advertising, books, and other products for sale provided
the
art itself was not the product being sold. I'm rather surprised,

actually.

BTW, notice the circular references involved. The page at
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4 says:

"If
you obtained the artwork from Office Online, you can find the EULA at
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX100667421033.aspx." If you click on
that
link, you get to a page of "
Legal Information." If you click on "Copyrighted Materials Permission,"
you
get right back where you started!

And if you go to
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...s/default.aspx
and select Publisher, IE goes off into Neverland for quite a long time
before you get to select the version, then again before you can select

the
language, then again... (why can't it wait for you to select all three
before looking for the appropriate page?). And then it finally offers

you
a
PDF, and that completely hung IE. sigh

The bottom line, however (for Publisher 2003), is as follows:

1.5 License Grant for Media Elements. The Software may include certain
photographs, clip art, shapes, animations, sounds, music and video clips
that are identified in the Software for your use (together "Media
Elements"). You may copy and modify the Media Elements, and license,
display
and distribute them, along with your modifications as part of your
software
products and services, including your web sites, but you are not

licensed
to
do any of the following:

• You may not sell, license or distribute copies of the Media Elements

by
themselves or as part of any collection, product or service if the

primary
value of the product or service is in the Media Elements.

• You may not grant customers of your product or service any rights to
license or distribute the Media Elements.

• You may not license or distribute any of the Media Elements that

include
representations of identifiable individuals, governments, logos,

initials,
emblems, trademarks, or entities for any commercial purposes or to

express
or imply any endorsement or association with any product, service,

entity,
or activity.

• You may not create obscene or scandalous works, as defined by federal
law
at the time the work is created, using the Media Elements.

In addition, you must (a) indemnify and defend Microsoft from and

against
any claims or lawsuits, including attorneys' fees that arise from or
result
from the licensing, use or distribution of Media Elements as modified by
you, and (b) include a valid copyright notice on your products and
services
that include the Media Elements.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the

newsgroup
so
all may benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
Per http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4

The following guidelines apply to the use of clip art:

1.
You may use clip art in your school assignments and projects.

2.
You may use clip art in your church brochure.

3.
You may use clip art for personal, noncommercial uses.

4.
You may not use clip art to advertise your business.

5.
You may not use clip art to create a company logo.

6.
You may not use clip art to illustrate the chapters of a book.




Number 3 pretty much says they can't.

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
Probably. In general, the license lets you use the clip art for

pretty
much
anything that doesn't constitute reselling the art as part of a clip
art
collection. But see
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/as...900871033.aspx

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the

newsgroup
so
all may benefit.

"Tom Willett" wrote in message
...
No.

"Confused?" wrote in message
...
|I am unsure of what kind of clipart can be used when making

products
that
| will be sold, such as a sticker or game using an image. Can I use

free
| clipart from mircosoft ect. when making these items or not?

Thanks!









  #8   Report Post  
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Confused? Confused? is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Use of clipart in a product that will be sold, stickers, etc.?

Thanks so much to all of you that looked it up and provided helpful insight.
It still seems to me that they make everything so confusing, so if I wanted
to make a birthday invitation and sell it on Ebay, it would be prohibited
because I am using both artclip and font from microsoft? That is the way it
sounds to me. Thanks again for your help.

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

The crux is what is meant by "non-commercially." Does "commercially" mean
you're selling the images (obviously not allowed), selling something that
contains the images (used to be allowed), selling yourself or a product or
service using the images (used to be allowed), etc.?

I guess it's just as well that I don't use any kind of clip art much at all
and in any case use it almost exclusively for (a) posters for the library
book review program (when the topic is not a book) or (b) pages for the room
books of a client's B&B (she has binders full of instructions for guests,
one per page, each with a clip art illustration). Sometimes I'm able to find
art in the Clip Art Gallery (online), but more often I resort to Google
Images.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
You made me curious about Office 2007. I have Pub 2007 installed and

checked
the EULA. It says:

"Media Elements and Templates. You may copy and use images, clip art,
animations, sounds, music, shapes, video clips and templates provided with
the software and identified for such use in documents and projects that

you
create. You may distribute those documents and projects non-commercially.
If you wish to use these media elements or templates for any other

purpose,
go to www.microsoft.com/permission to learn whether that use is allowed."

Looks like things have changed.


--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
This is a considerable change from former times. The EULA used to be
somewhat different for Publisher than for Word, but it still permitted

use
of clip art in advertising, books, and other products for sale provided
the
art itself was not the product being sold. I'm rather surprised,

actually.

BTW, notice the circular references involved. The page at
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4 says:

"If
you obtained the artwork from Office Online, you can find the EULA at
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX100667421033.aspx." If you click on
that
link, you get to a page of "
Legal Information." If you click on "Copyrighted Materials Permission,"
you
get right back where you started!

And if you go to
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...s/default.aspx
and select Publisher, IE goes off into Neverland for quite a long time
before you get to select the version, then again before you can select

the
language, then again... (why can't it wait for you to select all three
before looking for the appropriate page?). And then it finally offers

you
a
PDF, and that completely hung IE. sigh

The bottom line, however (for Publisher 2003), is as follows:

1.5 License Grant for Media Elements. The Software may include certain
photographs, clip art, shapes, animations, sounds, music and video clips
that are identified in the Software for your use (together "Media
Elements"). You may copy and modify the Media Elements, and license,
display
and distribute them, along with your modifications as part of your
software
products and services, including your web sites, but you are not

licensed
to
do any of the following:

€¢ You may not sell, license or distribute copies of the Media Elements

by
themselves or as part of any collection, product or service if the

primary
value of the product or service is in the Media Elements.

€¢ You may not grant customers of your product or service any rights to
license or distribute the Media Elements.

€¢ You may not license or distribute any of the Media Elements that

include
representations of identifiable individuals, governments, logos,

initials,
emblems, trademarks, or entities for any commercial purposes or to

express
or imply any endorsement or association with any product, service,

entity,
or activity.

€¢ You may not create obscene or scandalous works, as defined by federal
law
at the time the work is created, using the Media Elements.

In addition, you must (a) indemnify and defend Microsoft from and

against
any claims or lawsuits, including attorneys' fees that arise from or
result
from the licensing, use or distribution of Media Elements as modified by
you, and (b) include a valid copyright notice on your products and
services
that include the Media Elements.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the

newsgroup
so
all may benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
Per http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4

The following guidelines apply to the use of clip art:

1.
You may use clip art in your school assignments and projects.

2.
You may use clip art in your church brochure.

3.
You may use clip art for personal, noncommercial uses.

4.
You may not use clip art to advertise your business.

5.
You may not use clip art to create a company logo.

6.
You may not use clip art to illustrate the chapters of a book.




Number 3 pretty much says they can't.

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
Probably. In general, the license lets you use the clip art for

pretty
much
anything that doesn't constitute reselling the art as part of a clip
art
collection. But see
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/as...900871033.aspx

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the
newsgroup
so
all may benefit.

"Tom Willett" wrote in message
...
No.

"Confused?" wrote in message
...
|I am unsure of what kind of clipart can be used when making

products
that
| will be sold, such as a sticker or game using an image. Can I use
free
| clipart from mircosoft ect. when making these items or not?

Thanks!










  #9   Report Post  
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
JoAnn Paules [MVP] JoAnn Paules [MVP] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,113
Default Use of clipart in a product that will be sold, stickers, etc.?

That's what it sounds like to me - and since Microsoft can afford the
lawyers and I can't, I'd rather err on the (less costly) side of caution.

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Confused?" wrote in message
...
Thanks so much to all of you that looked it up and provided helpful
insight.
It still seems to me that they make everything so confusing, so if I
wanted
to make a birthday invitation and sell it on Ebay, it would be prohibited
because I am using both artclip and font from microsoft? That is the way
it
sounds to me. Thanks again for your help.

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

The crux is what is meant by "non-commercially." Does "commercially" mean
you're selling the images (obviously not allowed), selling something that
contains the images (used to be allowed), selling yourself or a product
or
service using the images (used to be allowed), etc.?

I guess it's just as well that I don't use any kind of clip art much at
all
and in any case use it almost exclusively for (a) posters for the library
book review program (when the topic is not a book) or (b) pages for the
room
books of a client's B&B (she has binders full of instructions for guests,
one per page, each with a clip art illustration). Sometimes I'm able to
find
art in the Clip Art Gallery (online), but more often I resort to Google
Images.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup
so
all may benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
You made me curious about Office 2007. I have Pub 2007 installed and

checked
the EULA. It says:

"Media Elements and Templates. You may copy and use images, clip art,
animations, sounds, music, shapes, video clips and templates provided
with
the software and identified for such use in documents and projects that

you
create. You may distribute those documents and projects
non-commercially.
If you wish to use these media elements or templates for any other

purpose,
go to www.microsoft.com/permission to learn whether that use is
allowed."

Looks like things have changed.


--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
This is a considerable change from former times. The EULA used to be
somewhat different for Publisher than for Word, but it still
permitted

use
of clip art in advertising, books, and other products for sale
provided
the
art itself was not the product being sold. I'm rather surprised,

actually.

BTW, notice the circular references involved. The page at
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4
says:

"If
you obtained the artwork from Office Online, you can find the EULA at
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX100667421033.aspx." If you click
on
that
link, you get to a page of "
Legal Information." If you click on "Copyrighted Materials
Permission,"
you
get right back where you started!

And if you go to
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...s/default.aspx
and select Publisher, IE goes off into Neverland for quite a long
time
before you get to select the version, then again before you can
select

the
language, then again... (why can't it wait for you to select all
three
before looking for the appropriate page?). And then it finally offers

you
a
PDF, and that completely hung IE. sigh

The bottom line, however (for Publisher 2003), is as follows:

1.5 License Grant for Media Elements. The Software may include
certain
photographs, clip art, shapes, animations, sounds, music and video
clips
that are identified in the Software for your use (together "Media
Elements"). You may copy and modify the Media Elements, and license,
display
and distribute them, along with your modifications as part of your
software
products and services, including your web sites, but you are not

licensed
to
do any of the following:

. You may not sell, license or distribute copies of the Media
Elements

by
themselves or as part of any collection, product or service if the

primary
value of the product or service is in the Media Elements.

. You may not grant customers of your product or service any rights
to
license or distribute the Media Elements.

. You may not license or distribute any of the Media Elements that

include
representations of identifiable individuals, governments, logos,

initials,
emblems, trademarks, or entities for any commercial purposes or to

express
or imply any endorsement or association with any product, service,

entity,
or activity.

. You may not create obscene or scandalous works, as defined by
federal
law
at the time the work is created, using the Media Elements.

In addition, you must (a) indemnify and defend Microsoft from and

against
any claims or lawsuits, including attorneys' fees that arise from or
result
from the licensing, use or distribution of Media Elements as modified
by
you, and (b) include a valid copyright notice on your products and
services
that include the Media Elements.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the

newsgroup
so
all may benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
Per http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4

The following guidelines apply to the use of clip art:

1.
You may use clip art in your school assignments and projects.

2.
You may use clip art in your church brochure.

3.
You may use clip art for personal, noncommercial uses.

4.
You may not use clip art to advertise your business.

5.
You may not use clip art to create a company logo.

6.
You may not use clip art to illustrate the chapters of a book.




Number 3 pretty much says they can't.

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
Probably. In general, the license lets you use the clip art for

pretty
much
anything that doesn't constitute reselling the art as part of a
clip
art
collection. But see
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/as...900871033.aspx

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the
newsgroup
so
all may benefit.

"Tom Willett" wrote in message
...
No.

"Confused?" wrote in
message
...
|I am unsure of what kind of clipart can be used when making

products
that
| will be sold, such as a sticker or game using an image. Can I
use
free
| clipart from mircosoft ect. when making these items or not?

Thanks!












  #10   Report Post  
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 506
Default Use of clipart in a product that will be sold, stickers, etc.?

Yes: That is correct. Basically "If you don't OWN it, you can't SELL it."

We do not OWN Microsoft software, clipart or fonts. We purchase a "licence
to use" under some very specific terms. Those terms allow you to use
both fonts and clip-art. But you need an extra licence to SELL stuff that
consists entirely of those products.

The fonts are not such a problem. It's the clip-art. You can buy CDs of
clip-art in any computer store. Read the back of the package carefully:
most of the stuff sold as "Clip Art" has an "open licence".

The most desirable is released into the "Public Domain", which grants you a
licence to use it any way you like, to do anything except claim copyright on
it :-).

All the graphics contained in Openclipart are released under Public Domain
Licence, which allows you to use them as you like without ANY limitations.
More information about Public Domain can be found he
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/

Public Domain Licence applies worldwide.

Cheers


On 14/1/07 3:01 AM, in article
, "Confused?"
wrote:

Thanks so much to all of you that looked it up and provided helpful insight.
It still seems to me that they make everything so confusing, so if I wanted to
make a birthday invitation and sell it on Ebay, it would be prohibited because
I am using both artclip and font from microsoft? That is the way it sounds to
me. Thanks again for your help.

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

The crux is what is meant by "non-commercially." Does "commercially" mean
you're selling the images (obviously not allowed), selling something that
contains the images (used to be allowed), selling yourself or a product or
service using the images (used to be allowed), etc.?

I guess it's just as well that I don't use any kind of clip art much at all
and in any case use it almost exclusively for (a) posters for the library
book review program (when the topic is not a book) or (b) pages for the room
books of a client's B&B (she has binders full of instructions for guests, one
per page, each with a clip art illustration). Sometimes I'm able to find art
in the Clip Art Gallery (online), but more often I resort to Google Images.

-- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama
USA Word MVP FAQ site:
http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged;
please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
... You made me curious about
Office 2007. I have Pub 2007 installed and checked the EULA. It says:

"Media Elements and Templates. You may copy and use images, clip art,
animations, sounds, music, shapes, video clips and templates provided with
the software and identified for such use in documents and projects that you
create. You may distribute those documents and projects non-commercially.
If you wish to use these media elements or templates for any other purpose,
go to www.microsoft.com/permission to learn whether that use is allowed."

Looks like things have changed.


--

JoAnn Paules MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~ How to ask a question http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
... This is a considerable change
from former times. The EULA used to be somewhat different for Publisher than
for Word, but it still permitted use of clip art in advertising, books, and
other products for sale provided the art itself was not the product being
sold. I'm rather surprised, actually.

BTW, notice the circular references involved. The page at
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4 says: "If
you obtained the artwork from Office Online, you can find the EULA at
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX100667421033.aspx." If you click on
that link, you get to a page of " Legal Information." If you click on
"Copyrighted Materials Permission," you get right back where you started!

And if you go to http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...s/default.aspx
and select Publisher, IE goes off into Neverland for quite a long time
before you get to select the version, then again before you can select the
language, then again... (why can't it wait for you to select all three
before looking for the appropriate page?). And then it finally offers you a
PDF, and that completely hung IE. sigh

The bottom line, however (for Publisher 2003), is as follows:

1.5 License Grant for Media Elements. The Software may include certain
photographs, clip art, shapes, animations, sounds, music and video clips
that are identified in the Software for your use (together "Media
Elements"). You may copy and modify the Media Elements, and license,
display and distribute them, along with your modifications as part of your
software products and services, including your web sites, but you are not
licensed to do any of the following:

€ You may not sell, license or distribute copies of the Media Elements by
themselves or as part of any collection, product or service if the primary
value of the product or service is in the Media Elements.

€ You may not grant customers of your product or service any rights to
license or distribute the Media Elements.

€ You may not license or distribute any of the Media Elements that include
representations of identifiable individuals, governments, logos, initials,
emblems, trademarks, or entities for any commercial purposes or to express
or imply any endorsement or association with any product, service, entity,
or activity.

€ You may not create obscene or scandalous works, as defined by federal law
at the time the work is created, using the Media Elements.

In addition, you must (a) indemnify and defend Microsoft from and against
any claims or lawsuits, including attorneys' fees that arise from or result
from the licensing, use or distribution of Media Elements as modified by
you, and (b) include a valid copyright notice on your products and services
that include the Media Elements.

-- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope,
Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be
acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may
benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
... Per
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4

The following guidelines apply to the use of clip art:

1. You may use clip art in your school assignments and projects.

2. You may use clip art in your church brochure.

3. You may use clip art for personal, noncommercial uses.

4. You may not use clip art to advertise your business.

5. You may not use clip art to create a company logo.

6. You may not use clip art to illustrate the chapters of a book.




Number 3 pretty much says they can't.

--

JoAnn Paules MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~ How to ask a question http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
... Probably. In general, the
license lets you use the clip art for pretty much anything that doesn't
constitute reselling the art as part of a clip art collection. But see
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/as...900871033.aspx

-- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope,
Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be
acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may
benefit.

"Tom Willett" wrote in message
... No.

"Confused?" wrote in message
... |I am unsure
of what kind of clipart can be used when making products that | will be
sold, such as a sticker or game using an image. Can I use free |
clipart from mircosoft ect. when making these items or not? Thanks!











--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Business Analyst, Consultant
Technical Writer.
Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410



  #11   Report Post  
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Confused? Confused? is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Use of clipart in a product that will be sold, stickers, etc.?

Thank you so much. This information has been very helpful.



"John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macinto" wrote:

Yes: That is correct. Basically "If you don't OWN it, you can't SELL it."

We do not OWN Microsoft software, clipart or fonts. We purchase a "licence
to use" under some very specific terms. Those terms allow you to use
both fonts and clip-art. But you need an extra licence to SELL stuff that
consists entirely of those products.

The fonts are not such a problem. It's the clip-art. You can buy CDs of
clip-art in any computer store. Read the back of the package carefully:
most of the stuff sold as "Clip Art" has an "open licence".

The most desirable is released into the "Public Domain", which grants you a
licence to use it any way you like, to do anything except claim copyright on
it :-).

All the graphics contained in Openclipart are released under Public Domain
Licence, which allows you to use them as you like without ANY limitations.
More information about Public Domain can be found he
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/

Public Domain Licence applies worldwide.

Cheers


On 14/1/07 3:01 AM, in article
, "Confused?"
wrote:

Thanks so much to all of you that looked it up and provided helpful insight.
It still seems to me that they make everything so confusing, so if I wanted to
make a birthday invitation and sell it on Ebay, it would be prohibited because
I am using both artclip and font from microsoft? That is the way it sounds to
me. Thanks again for your help.

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

The crux is what is meant by "non-commercially." Does "commercially" mean
you're selling the images (obviously not allowed), selling something that
contains the images (used to be allowed), selling yourself or a product or
service using the images (used to be allowed), etc.?

I guess it's just as well that I don't use any kind of clip art much at all
and in any case use it almost exclusively for (a) posters for the library
book review program (when the topic is not a book) or (b) pages for the room
books of a client's B&B (she has binders full of instructions for guests, one
per page, each with a clip art illustration). Sometimes I'm able to find art
in the Clip Art Gallery (online), but more often I resort to Google Images.

-- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama
USA Word MVP FAQ site:
http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged;
please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
... You made me curious about
Office 2007. I have Pub 2007 installed and checked the EULA. It says:

"Media Elements and Templates. You may copy and use images, clip art,
animations, sounds, music, shapes, video clips and templates provided with
the software and identified for such use in documents and projects that you
create. You may distribute those documents and projects non-commercially.
If you wish to use these media elements or templates for any other purpose,
go to www.microsoft.com/permission to learn whether that use is allowed."

Looks like things have changed.


--

JoAnn Paules MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~ How to ask a question http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
... This is a considerable change
from former times. The EULA used to be somewhat different for Publisher than
for Word, but it still permitted use of clip art in advertising, books, and
other products for sale provided the art itself was not the product being
sold. I'm rather surprised, actually.

BTW, notice the circular references involved. The page at
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4 says: "If
you obtained the artwork from Office Online, you can find the EULA at
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX100667421033.aspx." If you click on
that link, you get to a page of " Legal Information." If you click on
"Copyrighted Materials Permission," you get right back where you started!

And if you go to http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...s/default.aspx
and select Publisher, IE goes off into Neverland for quite a long time
before you get to select the version, then again before you can select the
language, then again... (why can't it wait for you to select all three
before looking for the appropriate page?). And then it finally offers you a
PDF, and that completely hung IE. sigh

The bottom line, however (for Publisher 2003), is as follows:

1.5 License Grant for Media Elements. The Software may include certain
photographs, clip art, shapes, animations, sounds, music and video clips
that are identified in the Software for your use (together "Media
Elements"). You may copy and modify the Media Elements, and license,
display and distribute them, along with your modifications as part of your
software products and services, including your web sites, but you are not
licensed to do any of the following:

‚¬ You may not sell, license or distribute copies of the Media Elements by
themselves or as part of any collection, product or service if the primary
value of the product or service is in the Media Elements.

‚¬ You may not grant customers of your product or service any rights to
license or distribute the Media Elements.

‚¬ You may not license or distribute any of the Media Elements that include
representations of identifiable individuals, governments, logos, initials,
emblems, trademarks, or entities for any commercial purposes or to express
or imply any endorsement or association with any product, service, entity,
or activity.

‚¬ You may not create obscene or scandalous works, as defined by federal law
at the time the work is created, using the Media Elements.

In addition, you must (a) indemnify and defend Microsoft from and against
any claims or lawsuits, including attorneys' fees that arise from or result
from the licensing, use or distribution of Media Elements as modified by
you, and (b) include a valid copyright notice on your products and services
that include the Media Elements.

-- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope,
Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be
acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may
benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
... Per
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4

The following guidelines apply to the use of clip art:

1. You may use clip art in your school assignments and projects.

2. You may use clip art in your church brochure.

3. You may use clip art for personal, noncommercial uses.

4. You may not use clip art to advertise your business.

5. You may not use clip art to create a company logo.

6. You may not use clip art to illustrate the chapters of a book.




Number 3 pretty much says they can't.

--

JoAnn Paules MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~ How to ask a question http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
... Probably. In general, the
license lets you use the clip art for pretty much anything that doesn't
constitute reselling the art as part of a clip art collection. But see
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/as...900871033.aspx

-- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope,
Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be
acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may
benefit.

"Tom Willett" wrote in message
... No.

"Confused?" wrote in message
... |I am unsure
of what kind of clipart can be used when making products that | will be
sold, such as a sticker or game using an image. Can I use free |
clipart from mircosoft ect. when making these items or not? Thanks!











--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Business Analyst, Consultant
Technical Writer.
Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410


  #12   Report Post  
Posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
JoAnn Paules [MVP] JoAnn Paules [MVP] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,113
Default Use of clipart in a product that will be sold, stickers, etc.?

John,

Your explanation was terrific!

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]" wrote in
message ...
Yes: That is correct. Basically "If you don't OWN it, you can't SELL
it."

We do not OWN Microsoft software, clipart or fonts. We purchase a "licence
to use" under some very specific terms. Those terms allow you to use
both fonts and clip-art. But you need an extra licence to SELL stuff that
consists entirely of those products.

The fonts are not such a problem. It's the clip-art. You can buy CDs of
clip-art in any computer store. Read the back of the package carefully:
most of the stuff sold as "Clip Art" has an "open licence".

The most desirable is released into the "Public Domain", which grants you
a
licence to use it any way you like, to do anything except claim copyright
on
it :-).

All the graphics contained in Openclipart are released under Public Domain
Licence, which allows you to use them as you like without ANY limitations.
More information about Public Domain can be found he
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/

Public Domain Licence applies worldwide.

Cheers


On 14/1/07 3:01 AM, in article
, "Confused?"
wrote:

Thanks so much to all of you that looked it up and provided helpful
insight.
It still seems to me that they make everything so confusing, so if I
wanted to
make a birthday invitation and sell it on Ebay, it would be prohibited
because
I am using both artclip and font from microsoft? That is the way it
sounds to
me. Thanks again for your help.

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:

The crux is what is meant by "non-commercially." Does "commercially"
mean
you're selling the images (obviously not allowed), selling something
that
contains the images (used to be allowed), selling yourself or a product
or
service using the images (used to be allowed), etc.?

I guess it's just as well that I don't use any kind of clip art much at
all
and in any case use it almost exclusively for (a) posters for the
library
book review program (when the topic is not a book) or (b) pages for the
room
books of a client's B&B (she has binders full of instructions for
guests, one
per page, each with a clip art illustration). Sometimes I'm able to find
art
in the Clip Art Gallery (online), but more often I resort to Google
Images.

-- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope,
Alabama
USA Word MVP FAQ site:
http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be
acknowledged;
please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
... You made me curious about
Office 2007. I have Pub 2007 installed and checked the EULA. It says:

"Media Elements and Templates. You may copy and use images, clip art,
animations, sounds, music, shapes, video clips and templates provided
with
the software and identified for such use in documents and projects that
you
create. You may distribute those documents and projects
non-commercially.
If you wish to use these media elements or templates for any other
purpose,
go to www.microsoft.com/permission to learn whether that use is
allowed."

Looks like things have changed.


--

JoAnn Paules MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~ How to ask a question http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
... This is a considerable
change
from former times. The EULA used to be somewhat different for Publisher
than
for Word, but it still permitted use of clip art in advertising, books,
and
other products for sale provided the art itself was not the product
being
sold. I'm rather surprised, actually.

BTW, notice the circular references involved. The page at
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4 says:
"If
you obtained the artwork from Office Online, you can find the EULA at
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX100667421033.aspx." If you click
on
that link, you get to a page of " Legal Information." If you click on
"Copyrighted Materials Permission," you get right back where you
started!

And if you go to
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...s/default.aspx
and select Publisher, IE goes off into Neverland for quite a long time
before you get to select the version, then again before you can select
the
language, then again... (why can't it wait for you to select all three
before looking for the appropriate page?). And then it finally offers
you a
PDF, and that completely hung IE. sigh

The bottom line, however (for Publisher 2003), is as follows:

1.5 License Grant for Media Elements. The Software may include certain
photographs, clip art, shapes, animations, sounds, music and video
clips
that are identified in the Software for your use (together "Media
Elements"). You may copy and modify the Media Elements, and license,
display and distribute them, along with your modifications as part of
your
software products and services, including your web sites, but you are
not
licensed to do any of the following:

? You may not sell, license or distribute copies of the Media Elements
by
themselves or as part of any collection, product or service if the
primary
value of the product or service is in the Media Elements.

? You may not grant customers of your product or service any rights to
license or distribute the Media Elements.

? You may not license or distribute any of the Media Elements that
include
representations of identifiable individuals, governments, logos,
initials,
emblems, trademarks, or entities for any commercial purposes or to
express
or imply any endorsement or association with any product, service,
entity,
or activity.

? You may not create obscene or scandalous works, as defined by
federal law
at the time the work is created, using the Media Elements.

In addition, you must (a) indemnify and defend Microsoft from and
against
any claims or lawsuits, including attorneys' fees that arise from or
result
from the licensing, use or distribution of Media Elements as modified
by
you, and (b) include a valid copyright notice on your products and
services
that include the Media Elements.

-- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope,
Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be
acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may
benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
... Per
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...efault.mspx#E4

The following guidelines apply to the use of clip art:

1. You may use clip art in your school assignments and projects.

2. You may use clip art in your church brochure.

3. You may use clip art for personal, noncommercial uses.

4. You may not use clip art to advertise your business.

5. You may not use clip art to create a company logo.

6. You may not use clip art to illustrate the chapters of a book.




Number 3 pretty much says they can't.

--

JoAnn Paules MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~ How to ask a question http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375




"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
... Probably. In general,
the
license lets you use the clip art for pretty much anything that
doesn't
constitute reselling the art as part of a clip art collection. But
see
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/as...900871033.aspx

-- Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type
Fairhope,
Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be
acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may
benefit.

"Tom Willett" wrote in message
... No.

"Confused?" wrote in message
... |I am
unsure
of what kind of clipart can be used when making products that |
will be
sold, such as a sticker or game using an image. Can I use free |
clipart from mircosoft ect. when making these items or not? Thanks!











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John McGhie
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Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410



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